If not Pilot, NFO?

[S.O.B.]

You have too narrow a view and too big of an ego. It's a team effort for the pilot/NFO to fly the plane. I doubt that any pilot of a tactical jet requiring a NFO thinks the NFO is not "flying" the plane.

I still haven't heard a "pilot of a tactical jet requiring an NFO" comment on this.

Trust me, with some of the flying I've done, I'm doing more of it than the nugget pilot. I know some may quibble with semantics and terminology, but I don't ride in my jet, I fly it.

And I don't have "NFO issues" in fact I could really care less but the thread was started by a kid who is trying to make a decision on career paths and I think it is in his best interest to know that being an NFO can create an identity crisis of sorts.

 

[Brett327]

And I don't have "NFO issues" in fact I could really care less but the thread was started by a kid who is trying to make a decision on career paths and I think it is in his best interest to know that being an NFO can create an identity crisis of sorts.

Again, your lack of experience in this matter shows through. Nothing could be further from the truth, and the role of NFOs are well established in their appropriate communities. As HAL has stated, the only people who seem to have difficulty understanding are single seat/pilot only aircrew. In the real world, it's really a non-issue. Try not to go so out of your way to criticize something you don't fully understand.

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

I still haven't heard a "pilot of a tactical jet requiring an NFO" comment on this. ....

I have. I will ... and I'LL BE BAAAA-A-ACK.

I've flown both --- single and two- place (requiring/desiring and NFO) "tactical" .... as well as "heavy-metal" multi-crew stuff. I'm so well rounded.
But now ... ??? I'm goin' to the parade. Happy 4th, boys .....

 

[S.O.B.]

Again, your lack of experience in this matter shows through. Nothing could be further from the truth, and the role of NFOs are well established in their appropriate communities. As HAL has stated, the only people who seem to have difficulty understanding are single seat/pilot only aircrew. In the real world, it's really a non-issue. Try not to go so out of your way to criticize something you don't fully understand.

Brett

No criticism here. You could and probably are the most important person in the aircraft as far as mission and maybe even safety of flight but again you are not “flying the aircraft” the guy with his hands on the controls is flying the aircraft.
That seems like a very basic fact.

I don't think there's a pilot in my squadron who would bat an eyelash if a WSO said "I fly F-18s"...

So how does that work? Your in a bar haven a few pops and you meet a chick, you say hey baby “I fly F-18s” What’s the next logical question? Are you a pilot? Do you explain what an NFO is or do you tell a little white lie?


Don’t get me wrong I know becoming an NFO is a tremendous achievement, probably more difficult then becoming a Helo pilot but in my opinion the job leads people to struggle with their identity and I think the "I fly the jet" crowd proves my point.

 

[Brett327]

No criticism here. You could and probably are the most important person in the aircraft as far as mission and maybe even safety of flight but again you are not “flying the aircraft” the guy with his hands on the controls is flying the aircraft.
That seems like a very basic fact.

Semantics, and I'm not going to go around in circles on this. The fact remains that the only people who seem to have a problem with this way of looking at the aviating process are those aforementioned single seat guys - that should tell you something. In my cockpit, it's simply not an issue.

I'm going to the beach - fireworks from offshore by kayak this year - good times.

Brett

 

[bunk22]

NFO's don't fly aircraft, they fly in them. That's a fact. They definitely have their place and are needed within their specific mission. Two heads are better than one, no doubt. If I flew tactical, I would want a two seat aircraft as I'm to much of rock to be alone. Doesn't change the fact that they have two anchors for a reason....they don't fly the aircraft. No need to get panties in a bunch. I fly the biggest POS trash hauler around and I often cry about it. Can't hurt my feelings though. It is what it is.

 

[A4sForever]

I still haven't heard a "pilot of a tactical jet requiring an NFO" comment on this.

On retrospect ... I think I'll just stay out of this. You can't win on this topic at the end of the day ...

 

[ChunksJR]

On retrospect ... I think I'll just stay out of this. You can't win on this topic at the end of the day ...

I concur with this.

SOB...we're 60 Pilots...we've never worked with NFOs, EVER. They are usually very cool people and great drinkers. Besides wondering if I need to pull 2 people or 1 out of an F-18 ejection, that's all I know...and that's all I assume to know. I trust that we need them because the Navy has had them since 1930s (originally Naval Flight Observers, according to the all knowing wikipedia).

just my .02

 

[A4sForever]

On second thought ... I posted this a long time ago when a similar question arose on AW about Aviators and NFO's ... take it for what it's worth (i.e., perhaps not much?? It IS free, you know ... ):

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY Department???

For you Aviators: if and when you ever go "downtown" and get scared, handled, and hammered by the GOMERS of whatever size, shape, or persuasion --- who do you suppose is there sitting beside you (or behind you) taking "it" with you?? That's right --- the same guy who will help get you to the target, be another set of eyes, help get you back to the ship, be your comrade, your shipmate, your drinking buddy on liberty --- and die right there with you if things should go terribly wrong. What do you suppose the NFO "deserves" then .... ??? Hopefully, an amount of respect equal to that an Aviator affords himself and his Aviating peers ....

I have twice as much single-seat time and a whole bunch of single-seat traps, so I come to this particular subject with no pre-conceived baggage. As a new Ensign, I was largely ignorant of the crew concept and thought like some of you do --- for about .25 microseconds until the reality of tactical Naval Aviation hit me right between the eyes. And when the sh!t hits the fan @ night no matter what you fly --- and you have vertigo, the sky is full of lightning, and you are totally screwed up and just wish it alll could STOP --- a B/N or RIO is potentially one of the best things you have going for you --- as long as both of you are working together and doing your jobs.

In the days prior to ILS/ACLS shipboard approach systems, I could even occasionally count on getting a good start (on aircraft radar, yet!!) from a really competent B/N. I had a couple of B/N's who used to be pilots --- they washed out @ the ship on night CQ --- but they had better eyesight than I did in the years I smoked cigarettes --- and were invaluable in acquiring a good ball and getting a good start as a result. We would ALWAYS give our squadron B/Ns a hard time and lots of razzing about their particular place in the world --- and they would give it right back. It was always offered in jest --- never in disrespect. Had my eyes failed me in training, I would have gone NFO pipeline in all likelihood.

I've had great B/Ns, some average ones, and a few lousy ones. My job was always easiest when I flew with the strongest B/Ns in the squadron --- now what does that tell you ???

So who "flies" ??? .... I guess we all do, to a certain degree.

 

[ChunksJR]

1. I’m not a 60 pilot.
2. I’ve partied with NFOs and I know they are cool people.
3. I have flown with NFOs in the front seat of a Helo (MERLIN types)
4. I’m drunk and going to bed. Happy 4th.

oops...sorry. i'm talking way out of my league here...i'll stick to instructing nugget wannabes.

~D

 

[raptor10]

Aviation week during CORTRAMID, converted one of our "die hard" SWO's to the aviation side of the house. You FO's must have really impressed him cause thats all he talks about now.

 

[rugbychi]

Aircrew is aircrew

Granted I’m just a helo guy, but I think that some junior NFOs have an identity confliction. It starts at wingings, they say ENS Schmuckately will be flying the Tomcat out of Norfolk. Is he really flying the Tomcat? When Crewman wing they don't say AWAN Stanley will be flying the H-60. I think it would be annoying to have to explain to people what you actually do in the Navy. Similar for helo guys, I make it a point when someone asks me what I do to say “I’m a helicopter pilot” not “I’m pilot” if you say "I'm a pilot in the Navy" people will naturaly assume you are flying jets off of a carrier.

I am a P3 pilot and a lot of our aircrew will actually say something to the extent of, "oh I used to fly 60's (or 53's or fill in favorite crewed airplane or helo)" And I understand why they say it and think they are totally just in doing so. I love the idea of my crew taking ownership of their role in a mission. From the MC on down to the junior aircrewman we are all flying. I understand where you are coming from with being a pilot, and actually flying. But I know that without every single person on the crew the plane is just a 40 year old flying machine. To "fly" the plane in any meaningful way we need the aircrew and while they are not manipulating the controls they definitely do their part....

 

[rugbychi]

No criticism here. You could and probably are the most important person in the aircraft as far as mission and maybe even safety of flight but again you are not “flying the aircraft” the guy with his hands on the controls is flying the aircraft.
That seems like a very basic fact.




So how does that work? Your in a bar haven a few pops and you meet a chick, you say hey baby “I fly F-18s” What’s the next logical question? Are you a pilot? Do you explain what an NFO is or do you tell a little white lie?


Don’t get me wrong I know becoming an NFO is a tremendous achievement, probably more difficult then becoming a Helo pilot but in my opinion the job leads people to struggle with their identity and I think the "I fly the jet" crowd proves my point.

Dude I think you are watching too many movies and if you are using lines like, "hey baby I'm a pilot" or worried that Jonny aircrew is going to steal your thunder on det you are missing the point. Getting your wings is no small feat, I know I have a set. But the same can be said for FO's and Aircrew, I see these guys and gals (aircrew not FO's) working their tails off at VP-30 for their wings of gold. And all the wings look the same with slight variations and all have a ton of meaning to the individuals who sport them.

Now can we please just get an NFO to say that their primary mission is to not manipulate the controls. Trust me I know FO's can fly I just had one check me out in a cessna 172 the other day at the aero club. Imagine that FO checking me out on my flying proficiency so I could rent a 172. SOB would your head just explode if a FO would down you on a flight...mine might have...but I am pleased to say that I am the new PIC of any 172 around.

Let it go man and enjoy not being underway on a submarine or on the bridge of some destroyer standing the midwatch...

 

[Brett327]

Now can we please just get an NFO to say that their primary mission is to not manipulate the controls.

That's right. My job is to manipulate the one who is manipulating the controls. I know I've said this before, but since we're picking at scabs for the sake of the new guy (smiles in effect), in my community, just about everything a pilot does is evaluated by an NFO. This includes all but a few flights in the RAG, NATOPS and Inst. checks, every ACTC event and upgrade. The only identity crisis is in SOB's head.

Brett