Huey (or Cobra) input wanted

[rweakley]

I've been talking to a friend of mine who flies Huey's. Telling me a bit about the community and how it can be a little cut throat and the new guys kinda get bullied. Still deciding if that is something I want to deal with. I've been in the Corps for 13 years (9 enlisted) and have been there done that new guy thing.

What I'm more interested is time with the family. I'd like to get to a point where I don't have to study every night and every weekend while not deployed. I feel like that would come much sooner in a 53.

I really like the tactical yanking and banking type flying though based on what I've seen in advanced. I'd like to learn more of that in the future, but at the same time don't want to be an absentee father/husband.

If you fly 53s welcome to chime in as well. Just trying to get a feel for what works with a family in the fleet. I have about 3 weeks til I have to put in my selection choices and am torn between trying for what I want to fly and what may be a better fit for a family man.

 

[picklesuit]

Too late for P-3's? That sucks...one question is how far does your commitment take you? Can you retire as a Captain in the Corps?
If so, remember that there will be plenty of dudes gunning for Commandant and you may be able to appropriately adjust your workload for your expectations.
Not saying you can slack off, but you don't have to kill yourself for the number 1 EP...
Pickle

 

[zippy]

I've been talking to a friend of mine who flies Huey's. Telling me a bit about the community and how it can be a little cut throat and the new guys kinda get bullied. Still deciding if that is something I want to deal with. I've been in the Corps for 13 years (9 enlisted) and have been there done that new guy thing.

What I'm more interested is time with the family. I'd like to get to a point where I don't have to study every night and every weekend while not deployed. I feel like that would come much sooner in a 53.

I really like the tactical yanking and banking type flying though based on what I've seen in advanced. I'd like to learn more of that in the future, but at the same time don't want to be an absentee father/husband.

If you fly 53s welcome to chime in as well. Just trying to get a feel fr what works with a family in the fleet. I have about 3 weeks til I have to put in my selection choices and am torn between trying for what I want to fly and what may be a better fit for a family man.

Don't want to be treated like a new guy? Sorry dude, its going to happen anywhere you go until you prove you can be trusted, or are worth a damn. Approaching selection with the mentality that youre looking to slack off for 7years till you get that check from uncle sugar to be family man of the year is also a pipe dream and is more dangerous for you. Why? Becaus e if you don't try for what you WANT to fly, and settle for something and end up disliking it you're going to come to resent the people you picked it for and thats going to derail everything else. Being where you want to be, even if you're working harder for it will make youre life at home better. Theres no such thing as a great community for family life. You need to select what you want for you and other people.[/quote]

 

[HueyCobra8151]

In no particular order:

Good: The flying is generally low, fast (for a helo), and/or at night, and you will get to shoot a lot of ordnance. The HMLA covers a lot of the missions of Marine aviation, so you have your fingers in a lot of cookie jars and get to see/do a lot of stuff, and you are often in the center of the air piece of the "MAGTF" planning effort (from my experience). The community is pretty tight-knit. Y's/Z's are so new we still get aircraft coming off the assembly line at Bell, and it's cool flying something that has a new car smell. We have good time-on-station usually, so we end up doing a lot of FAC(A) and other things. The downside is that if someone with a shorter TOS shows up, we often end up burning circles for a bit. It's cool to have random people walk up to you and tell you how skids saved their asses in combat. Hueys specifically are taking up a lot of assault support slack now that the -46's are sundowning, so the platform has a very wide range of missions, and even when doing close air support we generally have some sort of assault support tasking planned out as role. You can go out and do paraops or fastroping or something one day, and SCAR/armed recce or CAS the next day - so it keeps it pretty interesting.

Not as Good (Maybe): Ordnance makes people touchy, and there are a lot of missions, so as a new guy you are WAY WAY behind the power curve, and get crushed accordingly. I studied more my first couple months in the fleet than I ever did in flight school, and the studying is much more open-ended (threats, friendly capes, BPT Missions, aircraft systems, as well as various SOP's and Range Regs, etc... that all need to be down cold). Flight planning is much, much more detailed, and the briefs can be painful - other communities don't have the junior guy brief/lead the section/division on a training sortie (to my knowledge). The studying is pretty much unceasing. As a new guy you get crushed until you show that you are at least halfway decent, and your first year+ can kinda suck. Long days, and they often end with helping someone in the planning spaces - when 3/4 of the squadron pulls together to help someone on a big event or something it is pretty cool though.

Let me know if you have any other specific questions.

In any community you go to you can expect long hours at work. Pick something you are interested in doing, cuz you are going to spend more time at work than at home regardless.

 

[rweakley]

First off I would like to say I have no intention of slacking off for seven years. Taking into consideration the time I'll have with my family with various communities before selection doesn't make me a bad or lazy Marine. It just means I have other priorities in my life besides my career.

Secondly, as far as getting new guy treatment, I think it's common knowledge that the skid community has a reputation of being way harder on the new guys than the 53 community. It was at the recommendation of a friend who's been in the fleet for a year or so to take it into consideration. He said other prior enlisted did the same. Getting commissioned from SSgt to 2ndLt seems like being a PFC again half the time. Just don't know if I want to prolong it.

I appreciate the blunt honest zippy, but you seem to have jumped to some serious conclusions about me that are way off.

Input like that given by HueyCobra8151 is more what I was looking for.

 

[rweakley]

Good advice as well pickle

 

[zippy]

First off I would like to say I have no intention of slacking off for seven years. Taking into consideration the time I'll have with my family with various communities before selection doesn't make me a bad or lazy Marine. It just means I have other priorities in my life besides my career.

Secondly, as far as getting new guy treatment, I think it's common knowledge that the skid community has a reputation of being way harder on the new guys than the 53 community. It was at the recommendation of a friend who's been in the fleet for a year or so to take it into consideration. He said other prior enlisted did the same. Getting commissioned from SSgt to 2ndLt seems like being a PFC again half the time. Just don't know if I want to prolong it.

I appreciate the blunt honest zippy, but you seem to have jumped to some serious conclusions about me that are way off.

Just calling it like I see it based on the way you presented it (you're not the only person I've ever had this conversation with). Not wanting to be the new guy is a normal feeling, but saying that you're shying away from a community you "want" because that community "has a reputation for being way harder" or because putting in effort outside of normal working hours doesnt appeal to you sends those messages and will likely be percieved as an insult to the 53 community. If you say stuff like this in person, your desire to be a family man will be perceived as looking to skate while your peers are picking up your slack on the professional side of the house. I don't know you personally and I'm not the one you've got to prove wrong, but if people in the 53 community perceive things you say even remotely in a similar manner you'll be written off very early into it. 9yrs is a long time to spend getting sidelined for guys who are perceived as "wanting" to be in your community and "willing to work" for it.

There's absolutely a balance between family and professional life that we all have to strike. That balance is different for each person. I absolutely hope you find a way to meet both your family and professional goals. There will be costs on both sides either way though. You're going to be an absentee father/husband regardless so pick a community you want to be in while you're at work. I've got close friends in both communities. Their professional lives are very similar. Plenty of people make it in skids successfully as family men, they work for it though, both professionally and family wise. So do the successful 53 guys.

As far as being the new guy and all of that goodness... Either way, few people are going to look at you and think you don't have much professional credibility in the aircraft until you're an aircraft commander and have done a deployment. You might end up getting a slight bit more on the ground if you interact well with everyone but your credibility as a SSgt doesn't carry over and credibility as an company grade officer doesn't transfer well in a lot of cases and has to be rebuilt at every new command. Regardless of community, your loyalty will be suspect if you aren't perceived as putting at least as much effort as your peers work hours wise until you're qualified.

I've never met a dude who was perceived as willing to work and put in effort fail in their community, skid or otherwise. I've seen plenty of dudes fail professionally based on the perception that they aren't team players or putting equal effort in. Unfortunately, perception is reality.

 

[jtmedli]

Flight planning is much, much more detailed, and the briefs can be painful - other communities don't have the junior guy brief/lead the section/division on a training sortie (to my knowledge).

We do it in the Navy 60 community. My 3rd flight in the squadron was a day tacform/gun pattern flight off the boat with two O-4s. Needless to say, the debrief was painful.

 

[Hotdogs]

We do it in the Navy 60 community. My 3rd flight in the squadron was a day tacform/gun pattern flight off the boat with two O-4s. Needless to say, the debrief was painful.

In the ballpark - sort of. Skid attack patterns are different and vary dependent on section/division - pure or mixed, type of sensors, ordnance, door guns, etc. Also, integrating any amount of supporting arms and fixed wing can be a pretty large learning gap. In a community that makes it money off of breaking shit with a good amount of red ink over the last ten+ years, comparing it to Navy 60s is a little disingenuous. It's not a slight on anyone else, it's just how things are done. Kind of like how Skids would be shitty at dipping sonar or VERTREP. Pretty much what HueyCobra said is the standard everywhere.

 

[DocT]

There will be smashing in each community for new guys. The severity will be based on your attitude and the senior peer groups perceptions of you.

Just know this: as a boot in any community decisions are being made regarding YOUR future that many nuggets can't fathom. Within your first 4-6 months a ceiling regarding your quals and flight leadership has likely been decided. Changing those decisions is very difficult once they have been made. Nobody will tell you this, you'll just notice you are or aren't progressing with your peers.

The gist of this is that your first 6 months to a year in the fleet should be very busy and that is on you. If you only do what you're told, well, see above.

 

[phrogdriver]

To cut through the BS--let's be real. The skid mentality treats FNGs much differently than other communities. New guys everywhere need to STFU and learn, but skid guys will have them brief and lead two levels above their actual qualification level, e.g. a copilot is briefing and leading sections. That might be justified, based on their ordnance mission, but don't write it off as wanking.

Each platform has its personality. Choose based on the mission, vice the details. The airframe and the community are just background noise.

 

[jarhead]

To cut through the BS... New guys everywhere need to STFU and learn....

this

 

[jtmedli]

In the ballpark - sort of. Skid attack patterns are different and vary dependent on section/division - pure or mixed, type of sensors, ordnance, door guns, etc. Also, integrating any amount of supporting arms and fixed wing can be a pretty large learning gap. In a community that makes it money off of breaking shit with a good amount of red ink over the last ten+ years, comparing it to Navy 60s is a little disingenuous. It's not a slight on anyone else, it's just how things are done. Kind of like how Skids would be shitty at dipping sonar or VERTREP. Pretty much what HueyCobra said is the standard everywhere.

Yeah I didn't mean to insinuate that our briefs were identical. Our Level 3 Tactics briefs involve some very in-depth planning with all of the above mentioned, however. I'm in one of the more 'tactical' CV squadrons so I see our Sr JOs working with the whole airwing on LFE's to do CSAR, PR, etc.... We carry weapons (including the 20mm and rockets). Obviously that isn't our primary job but we still go out and practice CAS (attack, buddy-lasing, etc...) with the whole airwing present.

So yeah, we're different in our own ways, but we still do stand-up briefs and whatnot. We just can't really ever become experts on it because we have to spread ourselves out to maintain said vertrep, dipping, SAR, etc... quals that you Gents in the skid community don't have to worry about.

 

[azguy]

^ Easy killer...tactical 60 squadron...ya...go get me my mail...

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Well that was a pretty dick thing to say...

I guess to answer the original question: Skid guys are assholes...but we're still cooler than SWO's apparently.