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USN HT's a calamity

HokiePilot

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
In the incident I cited, the first indication was the student in the back looking at foreflight and telling the other 2 that they appeared to be 40 degrees off course. Not long later, the gyros started to spin. The IP pulled the HSI circuit breaker. This stopped them from spinning, but also removed the glideslope indication on the right side of the aircraft.

Whenever I taught IUTs the failed card flight, I would always have them read this HAZREP to convey the importance of this.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Do we teach failed card because it's something you need to know how to do later in life or because it's a failure mode of the 57?

So should we teach failed card because the 57 can go failed card or should we get a trainer that has redundant systems so you don't go "failed card?"
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Helo pilots ABSOLUTELY need to know how to fly IFR to avoid killing themselves running scud as @DanMa1156 mentioned. But an IFR pickup to radar vectors is what most will end up doing.

Which is why we (as a community) can sound like complete clowns when we actually go into the system. But then again, flying has always been something more than just something I do at work around the local area to me. That's why it always drives me nuts when I fly with (multiple!) pilots who don't even know who they're supposed to call when trying to enter a Class C.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
Do we teach failed card because it's something you need to know how to do later in life or because it's a failure mode of the 57?

So should we teach failed card because the 57 can go failed card or should we get a trainer that has redundant systems so you don't go "failed card?"

That was my thought as well. Anything we buy today as a -57 replacement will probably have avionics that don't fail due to flying in rain.

Edit: I'll also add that while a lot of fleet pilots might not be flying IFR daily, when they need it, they can fall back on that training. Clipping that portion of the syllabus out is foolish. They're better off omitting the full touchdown autorotation shit.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
The bigger question than filing an IFR flight plan back from East County, why in the world would you go to El Centro when Imperial is next door and the FBO there treats you so well?!?

Ha, agreed. Unfortunately, after 4 years in San Diego I was only able to go to Imperial 2x. During my time as a CAT I in the FRS, I recall the Commodore putting out as a memorandum that I think became a read and initial that he was tired of dudes passing over El Centro so they could get pizza at Imperial (understandable) so that became a "no-no" for a long time to go there... then, as I was a more senior HAC I remember my XO going on a minor rant about it as well, so again, a bit of a no-no.

But it's worked out... HT-land is a boondoggle for FBO food.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Also, NDB's are no longer a required item on any flight in the aircraft. I'd have to check, but I think a part of a sim is dedicated to them, but that's about it. Failed card is useful, but, mostly useful because they fail too often in the actual helicopter that we have. In the 3 months I've actually been an instructor, I've had them fail on me 2x. Once, I was completely VFR so no problem; second one was IFR, but eventually broke through, was able to see course rules and went home that way. Hated it both times.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Funny, I have a friend who flew AH-1's in the Corps. He noted that in four years of flying he never, once, did what he called "cloud flying."
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Avionics and flying in the rain... anybody remember how the AFCS computer would crap out from water intrusion in the avionics bay in the 60? According to legend, the Spanish had modified their 60 fleet by adding a simple splash pan made out of sheet metal. The problem went away, then we copied that idea (after several years of tolerating the problem and getting lots of practice flying stab off IMC).

The 60R and S are aging enough now that a lot of them are mid-life. I bet they have some nice surprises in store.

I've had an audio amp crap out in a T-6 after a big rainstorm (loud screeching and the only thing you can do is shut it off, which also disables one of your radios and makes the other one really really quiet). So it's not only an old or aged airframe problem. Actually had a few of those amps go like that...

Regarding autos and the different flight characteristics of the fleet helicopters- for a long time practice autos in the 60 were to a 10-20' hover since the prevailing wisdom at the RAGs was you'd want to do a 0-0 into the water. There was also a bizarre procedure to not let rotor inertia build in the flare, which is aerodynamically a terrible idea for a low inertia rotor system. The idea to maintain Nr at 100-105% in the flare was a relic of an early, long ago replaced version of the electronic engine controls that would result in a delayed spool up if you let Nr build too high. Finally that got changed in about 2010~ish when all four 60 type wing commodores signed a big instruction on autorotations in the 60. That instruction had a long, painful read about theory and practice, but it had actual, up to date science and reason in it- mostly because of the efforts of one of those commodores. And it made everybody stop trying for the simulated 0-0/practice auto to a 10' hover since the 60 is quite survivable in a water impact with nominal forward speed, run on autos to a runway just make more sense if you ever have to do one for real, and besides, the practice autos to a 10' hover had bent too many tail stingers and stabs over the years. Those were a couple of key points that the fleet had been doing wrong for a long time. Think about that for a minute.

The flare and touchdown in the flight school autos in the 57 could stand to be fine tuned to be a bit more like the revised 60 procedure. But the revisions to the 60 auto made it more like the flight school auto was all along. Food for thought.

@HokiePilot, thanks for pointing out thing about the glideslope bar on the 57 HSI being disabled when you freeze the card by pulling the HSI breaker. I knew that but it's been so long I'd forgotten.

Morals of the stories here are critical thinking, prevailing wisdom, and bureaucracy.
 

Mandingus

Member
pilot
I have a friend of a friend whose sister knows a guy....

Seriously? You guys know I am in the ARNG, right? Every year I go out of state to get a maintenance evaluator evaluation. Yes, I go to Louisiana sometimes. Do you not think I have been to and flown with people in that unit? Taken and given check rides to some of their pilots? Deployed with some of them? Yes, I have seen the safety center briefs, and more...and more than just twice. I never flew with any of them, but many in my ACT class audiences have flown with members of the accident crew.

I don't recall apologizing for their actions. But if slamming the crew by calling it homicide makes you feel better as a person, I guess I have already expressed my opinion about that.

Also, I never said there wasn't negligence. But anything but negligent? WTF?

Fair enough, I was using hyperbole, but I stand by the negligence assertion.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Edit: I'll also add that while a lot of fleet pilots might not be flying IFR daily, when they need it, they can fall back on that training. Clipping that portion of the syllabus out is foolish. They're better off omitting the full touchdown autorotation shit.
1. I'm not advocating no IFR training. That'd be plain stupid
2. What I am asking is "is the current way the best way?" Would the opportunity of getting a new training system open up new ways of doing business? A trainer with better systems would be one option. Are there other options?
3. This is maybe a chicken and egg discussion but should the fleet put more emphasis on IFR than it does? I hear a lot of "the HT syllabus has to be good because you'll need it in the fleet". If that's the case should the fleet syllabi include more IFR training to keep skillset as opposed to forcing guys to fall back on HT training? This would include the benefit of more discussion of how to best fly IFR in fleet airplanes.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
I know that is not the record for most acronyms in one sentence, but it has to be pretty close.

:<)

Wait until you get to a HQ staff... :)

Also, NDB's are no longer a required item on any flight in the aircraft. I'd have to check, but I think a part of a sim is dedicated to them, but that's about it. Failed card is useful, but, mostly useful because they fail too often in the actual helicopter that we have. In the 3 months I've actually been an instructor, I've had them fail on me 2x. Once, I was completely VFR so no problem; second one was IFR, but eventually broke through, was able to see course rules and went home that way. Hated it both times.

I am fully onboard with coupled ILS and LPV approaches, but at the same time one needs to consider what navaids are available in the less developed parts of the world. If the GPS network is down, that might be a NDB. Not saying you have to go crazy teaching it, but one should be familiar with the concept.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
If you guys read the RFP for the Advanced Helo Training System you will notice there is a provision for a two aircraft solution - so this could get interesting.

Not unheard of--many of you have seen the helos on sticks at Whiting....
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Wait until you get to a HQ staff... :)



I am fully onboard with coupled ILS and LPV approaches, but at the same time one needs to consider what navaids are available in the less developed parts of the world. If the GPS network is down, that might be a NDB. Not saying you have to go crazy teaching it, but one should be familiar with the concept.
Is there any scenario where the GPS sattelite network woukd ever be down??? I can't imagine it.
 
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