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USN HT's a calamity

BleedGreen

Active Member
pilot
Or reciting each EP during a NATOPS brief. I'm already supposed to know what the EP is, you don't have to tell it to me. This is why NATOPS briefs last 30 minutes. I'm pretty much not listening after 5 minutes.
Is it non-standard to brief CMI's during NATOPS in the Romeo community?

HSC is supposed to start going away from reciting EP's during a NATOPS brief. A critique from a brief I had with the Skipper was "good job reciting the EP's in the brief but we should all know that stuff, let's focus on the mission and not on critical memory items." All this was prefaced with " Our Commodore wants us to change the way we brief NATOPS by Exception," so I don't think our Skipper is going rogue.
 

AllYourBass

Mistrap Queen
pilot
Fun fact: an H-60 in flight with a decent AFCS will maintain attitude and heading pretty damn well if you don't touch the controls. My last year flying the 60 I spent a fair amount of time flying with my hands near the controls and feet flat on the deck. Turns out the money the Navy spent on the AFCS developed a decent system when used properly that allows an aviator to focus more on mission execution and less on flying the Helo. If needed you could easily fly a 60 single pilot and do all the button pushing while the AFCS handles the holding of the attitude, heading, etc. this gets even easier if you turn one of the alt holds on as well. I know there's a reluctance to use alt hold all the time because we want nuggets to get time flying the airplane but it's kind of silly to essentially not use a workload management tool and instead fly a $15M Helo with an advanced AFCS like it's a Bell 206 from 1965.
Yesterday was the first time I've ever flown a D-Pro FCF. I called it my "AFCS Appreciation" event because it helped me realize how much I habitually depress the pedal microswitches in flight, among other things. Being required per the checklist to keep my hands off the damn controls just showed me that I tend to override that magic too often (i.e., too many cooks in the kitchen).
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
Yesterday was the first time I've ever flown a D-Pro FCF. I called it my "AFCS Appreciation" event because it helped me realize how much I habitually depress the pedal microswitches in flight, among other things. Being required per the checklist to keep my hands off the damn controls just showed me that I tend to override that magic too often (i.e., too many cooks in the kitchen).
I harp on this continuously with CAT1s. I literally tell them to just let go and stop screwing it up. The bird with fly itself.
 

AllYourBass

Mistrap Queen
pilot
I harp on this continuously with CAT1s. I literally tell them to just let go and stop screwing it up. The bird with fly itself.
I remember getting lectured after a sim in Primary by a LCDR who regaled me with a tale about uncoordinated flight and certain death and powerlines or something like that. I then went on to fly the T-6B (don't touch the damn pedals), the TH-57 (holy shit touch the pedals more) and then the MH-60R (why the fuck are you touching the pedals, nerd?).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

jtmedli

Well-Known Member
pilot
I remember getting lectured after a sim in Primary by a LCDR who regaled me with a tale about uncoordinated flight and certain death and powerlines or something like that. I then went on to fly the T-6B (don't touch the damn pedals), the TH-57 (holy shit touch the pedals more) and then the MH-60R (why the fuck are you touching the pedals, nerd?).

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
We were actually talking about this today. The TH57 doesn't exactly set you up for success in the 60. Great VFR trainer but the stick skills don't exactly translate over when it's time to fly something with a good AFCS system on it.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Fun fact: an H-60 in flight with a decent AFCS will maintain attitude and heading pretty damn well if you don't touch the controls.
Additional fun fact: You're actually specifically told by NATOPS (finally) to not touch the cyclic when dipping.

Is it non-standard to brief CMI's during NATOPS in the Romeo community?
Non-standard? No, but that doesn't make it any less silly. Typically you'll have two types of NATOPS briefs. One will be a FRS brief because that's how it was learned and no one ever really helped the person learn how to tailor the brief (CAVU all day for a day flight, but they still talk about IIMC). The other type is someone who tries to be efficient with the brief and discuss the dynamic aspects of helicopter flying or specifics that they want done (like not touching the EMERG button under certain conditions). Personally, I try to be in the second camp.

But as always, the RAG breeds habits, and we can be our own worst enemy. When I was going through as a CAT Other for Romeo, I made a comment to the LT IP I was with that day about how everyone tunes out when a CAT 1 starts reciting EPs during the brief. His response was, "well, that's why we need to be professional and stay engaged during the brief." Instead of addressing the technique, the answer is just to endure the pain. Launch LAMPS!

Yesterday was the first time I've ever flown a D-Pro FCF.
I hate D-Pros. They seem to go on forever.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
EPs during the brief? We cover IIMC, NVG failure and landing considerations for EPs. We also cover "special considerations" based on the mission. For example, what you do for a single engine failure in a hover over an LZ is NOT what you would do while performing a live host.

It does take awhile to develop a good brief. And it isn't one size (brief) fits all (missions). There are five or six maneuvers our aircrew training manual says an MTP MUST brief prior to performing the maneuver:

1) Tail rotor backup servo check
2) Generator under frequency/low rotor RPM disable check
3) Autorotational RPM check
4) Max power check/limiter check
5) Vh
6) A + B vibration absorber tuning check (A/L only)

I have to check for the brief when evaluating an MTP on these maneuvers, but the emphasis I make is that they should ensure the copilot is listening. It is so important that there is now another task I am required to evaluate during an APART:

7) Respond to critical situation during maintenance check.

At first, 70% or more failed to do what they said they would do if an emergency occurred during a maintenance check. Now it is down to about 20%. I realize not everyone preforms MTF/FCF maneuvers, but the concept applies to other maneuvers and missions.

Brief length:

Too long, mundane, or not applicable...no one listens.

Too short or not detailed enough...crew fails to do the optimal procedures/steps for the particular flight regime
 

BleedGreen

Active Member
pilot
....The other type is someone who tries to be efficient with the brief and discuss the dynamic aspects of helicopter flying or specifics that they want done (like not touching the EMERG button under certain conditions). Personally, I try to be in the second camp.
I agree with the second method as well, ever since we started briefing the abbreviated way you get the dirtiest looks from old crusty pilots and crew chiefs.
 

DanMa1156

Land of the Milk and Honey.
pilot
Contributor
No that just means the person who passed the controls didn't follow the procedure correctly and should get his dick smashed accordingly. Not because there is an inherent failure in the flight control system. Also have never experienced anything like that before.
What haven't you experienced?
 

nittany03

FUBIJAR
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
But as always, the RAG breeds habits, and we can be our own worst enemy. When I was going through as a CAT Other for Romeo, I made a comment to the LT IP I was with that day about how everyone tunes out when a CAT 1 starts reciting EPs during the brief. His response was, "well, that's why we need to be professional and stay engaged during the brief." Instead of addressing the technique, the answer is just to endure the pain. Launch LAMPS!
When I was a relatively senior JO, I had this discussion mid-cruise with some people. I thought our consensus made some sense whatever your platform. There's that time when someone has to brief something because it doesn't make ORM sense for everyone in the crew to go "Brief Alpha, per NATOPS and SOP. Questions?" It may be a new Cat 1 on a benign flight, or a junior JO on an upgrade. Either way, as a senior JO or higher, you know what "right" sounds like. So you've looked at the briefing board and checked your kneeboard pack. The overall plan makes sense, with nothing obviously unsafe. You're not really listening to everything they say, because you've heard it a hundred times before. You're half-listening, but as soon as you hear a deviation from "right," you perk up and start pinging the FNG to make sure they know what they're talking about.
 

DanMa1156

Land of the Milk and Honey.
pilot
Contributor
....that any winged aviator would completely let go of the controls to zoom in on an iPad. Never seen/heard of it.
I agree. I'm literally talking about letting students in the HT's do it, which is why I do harp on them to not let go or to transfer the controls to do that.
 
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