How much does prior flight training help?

[TolgaK]

I can tell you from commercial flying that it works pretty much the same in the civilian world. If you can't adapt to the flying style of a certain job, the company will find no use for you. If you can't learn the company way, you wont get company pay. Training standards can be just as cutthroat.

I just transferred from Juneau to Memphis within the same company. Single pilot VFR Captain to IFR First Officer (in a Caravan, ) . My role and responsibilities have been flipped upside down. For the flying in Alaska, I went from the before start flow to wheels off the ground in two minutes. Down here, it's read and response checklists, fly based on numbers instead of feel, navigate through the clouds at 8000 MSL instead of around the clouds and mountains at 500 AGL while trying to maintain at least 2 sm visibility and glide range to safe landing spots.

I haven't gone through it yet, my impression from reading this forum is military style flying is just another set of procedures and logic that have to be adapted to. It's the same as any other transition like airline to cropdusting, or instruction to banner towing. The difference is, military standards can be higher, workloads are higher and it's a straight up competition all the way through. Adaptability wins. Being the guy that says "yea, but back at XYZ we did it this way..." is a sure way of holding yourself back, just like it is in the civilian world.

I want to compare something simple since I am curious: What are the maximum altitude, heading, and speed deviations allowable in straight and level flight in both primary and advanced? The standards I've been held to were plus or minus 100ft, 10 degrees, 5 knots; though most of us can do way better.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Single pilot VFR Captain to IFR First Officer (in a Caravan, ) . My role and responsibilities have been flipped upside down. For the flying in Alaska, I went from the before start flow to wheels off the ground in two minutes. Down here, it's read and response checklists, fly based on numbers instead of feel, navigate through the clouds at 8000 MSL instead of around the clouds and mountains at 500 AGL while trying to maintain at least 2 sm visibility and glide range to safe landing spots.

So you went from having the same skill set of a private pilot to the lowest possible position in the commercial flying world and you can tell us all about how it is in commercial aviation.....

You're partially right. You fly the company's procedures but you can apply your own techniques. And the basic fundamental procedures and airmanship requirements are the 95% the same at every major commercial operation. VFR Captain to IFR FO tells me you are low time and inexperienced. Bragging about going from before start to wheels up in under 2 minutes then scud running tells me that you do not understand the basic concepts of commercial flying, safety and professionalism. (Yes I know scud running is a way of life in Alaska but it is also why there are more pilots killed there than anywhere else.)

 

[TolgaK]

So you went from having the same skill set of a private pilot to the lowest possible position in the commercial flying world and you can tell us all about how it is in commercial aviation.....

The company I worked for in Alaska for forces nobody through training that can't handle it. It's not an easy place at all to fly. The company flies right up to the boundaries of the law, which leaves minimal room for error at a place like that. Standards for knowledge and skill are as high as anywhere else. Being in a relatively slow plane doesn't change the level of knowledge and skill a company requires.

You're partially right. You fly the company's procedures but you can apply your own techniques. And the basic fundamental procedures and airmanship requirements are the 95% the same at every major commercial operation.

That is true. It makes moving from one airline style position to another fairly easy. The point I am emphasizing is flexibility. An airline operation is not the same as every other job. If you flew a cropduster like you flew an airliner, you wouldn't accomplish anything and you'd lose your job pretty quickly. Just like that transition, going from airline pilot to military is a big change. I was trying to emphasize that last point.

VFR Captain to IFR FO tells me you are low time and inexperienced.

I am not the highest of times, enough with hours to spare to be an IFR Captain at this company but not enough seniority compared to the guys being upgraded now.

Bragging about going from before start to wheels up in under 2 minutes then scud running tells me that you do not understand the basic concepts of commercial flying, safety and professionalism.

I don't think you understand the nature of the job or the point I was making.

Unlike the experience I see in your information, there is no need to do thorough plans of flights, obtain clearances, talk to a tower (anywhere outside of Juneau), the aircraft are simple to operate, the navigation is strictly memorized pilotage to one of only 6 airports, and there is no coordination with onboard crewmembers. There are about 25 switches and controls to check to start a Caravan, which take seconds to confirm the proper positioning of, post start and taxi checks (except the first flight of the day), can be completed between the beginning of the initial roll to entering the runway. There are 5 controls on the pre-takeoff checklist. You do it all while listening for departing and arriving traffic and making your calls. Everything flows in lines, you don't have to reach in all different directions and mess with switches you can't see. All the weather preparation is done before each flight. You can't plan very much for what's out there. If it's crummy out, you turn back.

There is literally nothing else you need to do once the doors close except brief and check the passengers. If it's unsafe to go, you'll either hear it or look it up before you get to the plane, or you'll find out in flight and turn around. If I need any more time to prepare for a takeoff, either personally or because of passengers or systems, I take it. It's that simple.

Doing what I did under the circumstances I performed them is easy when the clouds are anything above 2500' AGL. I don't mean for me, I mean for anyone. It's not bragging, it's how things are. Once you get into the flow and routine, 2-3 minutes is all you really need if you're starting anywhere near the runway with nobody in the pattern.

The problem with it is: pilots that go through that attempt to act as a single pilot, even when they transfer to crew environments. It's horrible preparation for CRM. I doesn't matter how easy it is to be an FO in a single pilot plane. If the company demands you act and fly like an airline FO and holds you to the same standards of flight ability and knowledge, the only way to get through is to act as they demand of you.

(Yes I know scud running is a way of life in Alaska but it is also why there are more pilots killed there than anywhere else.)

I'm unprofessional for doing my job as required of me? I'm bragging because I describe what I had to do? Is my opinion about flexibility and adaptability in training wrong because of my ranking in the grand scheme of aviation? I don't know where I rank in skill compared to the rest of this world, and honestly I don't care as long as I can keep improving.

Managing that weather while maintaining all your other requirements for safety is not easy. It's not +/- 10' altitude control that keeps you from hitting things, it's knowing how to navigate around clouds, mountains, and staying near shore without getting yourself into a dangerous situation. Knowing when to turn around is even more important. It's not a basic PPL skill. It's ability that only comes through training and experience in that environment.

People die in Alaska because they get brave whether they have the needed skills or not.. They go into IMC over mountainous terrain thinking they can maintain a compass heading and get out OK. They die when engines fail and they have to land in freezing water or into trees. because they pushed beyond their limits from shore. They flip planes over trying to land in high winds on short iced up runways when they know they shouldn't be trying in the first place.

The management I worked under would not question a decision to turn around if one needed to. It is not true in much of the rest of Alaska. There are a lot of pilots who fly for their own single-plane companies.

About the tolerances, I'm still curious as to what they are. I want to know what increased military standards are so I can actively prepare for them in my current flying.

 

[HAL Pilot]

There are good reasons that most airlines will not hire an Alaskan bush pilot who hasn't moved on to a regualr commercial job first. No one else believes the "if it didn't kill you it must make you a better pilot" BS. It just means "you" got lucky.

Maybe I read too much into your "I can tell you from commercial flying that it works pretty much the same in the civilian world" statement but your are a beginner commercial pilot in a beginner job who is making all encompassing statements.

BTW, I've flown Caravans. I wouldn't go from a before start to t/o in 2 minutes.

 

[TolgaK]

There are good reasons that most airlines will not hire an Alaskan bush pilot who hasn't moved on to a regualr commercial job first.

I realize that 100%. I think it works as I explained. The transition for most people isn't easy. The risk is perceived differently. Some things that are safe in the airline world do not apply to Alaska and the opposite is also true. If you can't adapt, you can't make it. Transitioning to a more conventional commercial job is proof to airlines that such pilots can adapt. It's the same reason ERAU pilots aren't so welcome in outside the airline industry. Many of us were taught to believe that A, B, and C are totally unacceptable modes of flight, just as you saw the legal scud running I had to do as unprofessional, and can't adapt to the new environment.

No one else believes the "if it didn't kill you it must make you a better pilot" BS. It just means "you" got lucky.

In given situations where you go into IMC and terrain unprepared, I get that. The skill is in managing that risk. The weather and terrain create a lot of traps that an untrained person can fall into. Add snow and flat light to the mix, and you could think you're just continuing into 3 sm visibility air when there's a mountain in front of you. If you don't know what you are doing up there, you are significantly more likely to crash on a marginal VFR day. If you get cocky, it's only a matter of time.

I think it can be agreed that decision making is in many cases more important than hand flying skills. Just as some people can't maintain an altitude or heading, some people can't think for the environment.

Maybe I read too much into your "I can tell you from commercial flying that it works pretty much the same in the civilian world" statement but your are a beginner commercial pilot in a beginner job who is making all encompassing statements.

There is a reason I did not specify the transition from one airline to another. I don't see how it can be said I am wrong for the transitions I used as examples. Delta FO to American FO is not such a big change in style. Going from 3 hour long IFR legs in the flight levels to flying 20 feet off the deck while dumping chemicals is a transition that requires a huge change in pilot comfort and attitude. I don't have to work such jobs to know that you have to be adaptable, even if you have the right skills. It's a fact that applies to every industry.

A bunch of us are on the way towards military aviation.

BTW, I've flown Caravans. I wouldn't go from a before start to t/o in 2 minutes.

The first time I said it I didn't refer to a warm 207 which has even less to do. My mistake.

That being said, it can be and has been done in a Caravan as I explained. The operation I was in doesn't require anything but basic functions of aircraft and minimum required equipment. The spool up and ITT monitoring are the the only things that requires the pilot to wait. Everything else is ready to go and just waiting for the pilot to flick the right switches to check or activate. No loading of flight plans. No boots to check. Inertial separator and overspeed governers are once-per-day checks. Flaps are deployed and the few VFR instruments and electricals are checked on taxi. Torques, RPMs, Pressures, and Temperatures are stabilized and ready to go within a very short time. I'm trying to see what else I'm missing that would take longer, but with the right timing and flows I'm not seeing any setbacks besides the determination that the pilot himself is ready to commit to the flight. We also rarely had a long taxi.

 

[Renegade One]

Or as in Matt's case, you'll only ...have to suffer through hr long debriefs after a PA and RI flights instead of the full hour and a half (or until you cry- whichever comes first).

Crying?!? There's no CRYING in flight training!!!

 

[Jim123]

@TolgaK, those basic tolerances are normally +/- 100', 10 degrees, 10kts (although sometimes tighter depending on the situation- ie. leveling off on an instrument approach). But that is really just one small piece of the puzzle. There are many pieces to military flight training- most of them are easy by themselves but two things that make it difficult are that there are so many pieces and the pace is demanding.

Students learn to fly an aircraft by performing a detailed script of various maneuvers and doing lots of landings (just like any flight training program), but just as they start getting barely good at that another thing gets added, and another, and another- keeping track of where you are in the working area, practice emergencies (lots of these), aerobatics, keeping track of your wingman while running through a script of formation maneuvers, some more practice emergencies, instrument flying. And all that gets stuffed into about eight months, 80 flight hours, and lots of simulators and ground school for primary flight training... then you do it all over again flying something else in advanced training along with a foundation of basic tactical concepts. And if they can't keep up within the time and money allotted, then they get attrited (wash out).

FWIW, I worked harder during my ~ two years of flight school to get my wings than I did in ~ four years of college to get an engineering degree.

YMMV...

 

[TolgaK]

@TolgaK, those basic tolerances are normally +/- 100', 10 degrees, 10kts (although sometimes tighter depending on the situation- ie. leveling off on an instrument approach). But that is really just one small piece of the puzzle. There are many pieces to military flight training- most of them are easy by themselves but two things that make it difficult are that there are so many pieces and the pace is demanding. etc

Thanks. The impression I got from NAs at airshows was that it's mostly a numbers game, which sounded off to me. This is the first realistic impression I've heard of the general pace. I can see where some of my experience is useful and some can set me back. Sounds daunting and exhilarating at the same time. Definitely seems worth the effort to complete.

 

[zippy]

Crying?!? There's no CRYING in flight training!!!

There is when you're debriefing the future jet guys of America (mostly Marines), actually

 

[JTW]

TolgaK do you know the Tweto's?

 

[TolgaK]

TolgaK do you know the Tweto's?

I did not fly in that area of Alaska. I was going to walk in a resume to ERA when I made a trip to Anchorage. I called the recruiter instead

 

[jtmedli]

Crying?!? There's no CRYING in flight training!!!

There is when a nut gets caught between an inflating Gsuit and a harness strap. Just Sayin'

 

[Renegade One]

There is when a nut gets caught between an inflating Gsuit and a harness strap. Just Sayin'

Preflight starts LONG before you walk to the jet...

 

[jtmedli]

Preflight starts LONG before you walk to the jet...

We'll call that one a lesson learned.

 

[Renegade One]

We'll call that one an OLD lesson re-learned.

FIFY.