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"High Risk of Runway Collisions"

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
So many of these news reports seem to carry the undercurrent that pilots and aircrew are mindless drones who will blunder into disaster if ATC screws up and clears them for the wrong thing. Know what the difference is between pilots and controllers? If the pilot screws up badly enough, the pilot dies. If ATC screws up badly enough, the pilot dies.

The "chances" and "risk" of this happening during a given event are either 1 or 0. You could walk out to pick up your mail and get run over by a drunk teenager. Everyone's gotta die of something, and there comes a time when reducing "risk" requires exponential sacrifice and just isn't worth it.

Moral of the story: if you EVER cross a runway without checking the groove both ways, you are remiss. If you EVER take the duty without checking your compass aligned, you are remiss. Granted, in crappy conditions, one places a certain amount of trust on the controller that no one is on short GCA final in the goo. That said, if you ever see a foul deck on short final, GO AROUND and try again unless the alternative is worse. Is that so hard?

That said, I do think it's shady that so many controllers are working such long hours. Can any of the more experienced bubbas chime in on any crew day/rest requirements they may or may not have?
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I was wondering what our airlines bubbas thought of this article and the issues ....

From the article: " .... This report makes clear that the (***INSERT NAME OF ANY ADMINISTRATION HERE ***) administration is cutting corners and failing to put passenger safety first,” Sen Lautenberg said. “The FAA is taking too many chances and ignoring too many red flags.”

WOW!!! That's rocket science, Senator !!! What a fuckin' revelation!!! THIS IS NEWS !!!! :eek:
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
How about: in the past year 200,000 pedestrians have been nearly hit by automobiles. The Bush Administration has to do something about the epidemic of street incursions by pedestrians. John Q. Smith came within 37 feet of an automobile just last month.

If someone kept track of everytime something disastrous could have happened, any field of human endeavor would look insane. Just today, I came within mere feet of colliding with another automobile several times. I could have fallen down the stairs, but didn't. I could have spontaneously combusted.

This is pure alarmism. In a business as serious as aviation, you always have to scrutinize performance for ways to improve. However, knee-jerk responses only divert attention and resources away from where they might be rationally directed. Congress can mandate that a gazillion dollars be spent on airport ground tracking radars, but that will come at the expense of something else, be that personnel, surveillance radars, maintenance, or whatever. It will come from something else worthwhile that wasn't a hotbutton issue.
 

Cobra Commander

Awesome Bill from Dawsonville
pilot
That said, I do think it's shady that so many controllers are working such long hours. Can any of the more experienced bubbas chime in on any crew day/rest requirements they may or may not have?

It's because they don't have enough controllers. Their pay and stuff like that is all dicked up so it's hard for them to attract new talent, plus they have pretty high attrition because of the stress and all around BS that they have to deal with.

I only know this because my cousin is a controller in DC.
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
The problem is too many friggin airplanes.. "Cleared to cross such and such, landing traffic on mile and half final..." Stuff that Navy controllers would never clear you to cross is being pushed.. And landing is about how much shit you can stuff in one bag... Just go to EWR or BOS any day of the week and watch the taxi show... The controller do a great job but all it takes is one guy or a a/c malfunction to screw the pooch... Just my Euros worth opinion...
 

Nose

Well-Known Member
pilot
It's because they don't have enough controllers. Their pay and stuff like that is all dicked up so it's hard for them to attract new talent, plus they have pretty high attrition because of the stress and all around BS that they have to deal with.

I only know this because my cousin is a controller in DC.


YGBSM! Controllers make more than pilots now. Controller pay is at an all time high, and about to go up.

Stress? Give me a break. Stress of what? Spilling coffee in their lap?

They have high attrition because all the scabs are retiring.
 

Ken_gone_flying

"I live vicariously through myself."
pilot
Contributor
Two girls I worked with got picked up to be controllers in the past few months. One is working at Boeing Field tower up here in Seattle and the other got hired by Seattle Center and is currently in school down in Oklahoma. I think the problem is that there are too few of them to cover the shifts (safely). I agree that the pay is competitive and not the issue, its just replacing all of the bodies that are retiring. The FAA's stone-age equipment doesn't help the situation either.
 

firefriendly

Member
pilot
YGBSM! Controllers make more than pilots now. Controller pay is at an all time high, and about to go up.


Can you provide your source on that info? Controller pay is extremely LOW for the guys coming in. I won't argue that the controllers who have been there since the strike are doing well, but the new guys are now on the A/B scale. They are pulling in 35-40% less than the controllers they are sitting next to. Starting salary is 32k (not counting cost of living adjustment, holiday, overtime, etc). That is still very low and you make that till you certify at your facility which could take up to 2 years. Is 60-70k max at large(very busy) facilities really "good pay" all while dealing with crappy equipment and heavier traffic? You say it's going to go up, but when? The POTUS vetoed the bill that would allocate $68B to upgrade the aviation system. Even more disturbing, legislators are planning to take money that was supposed to go to FAA improvements and use it to offset the Alternative Minimum Tax. (source WSJ) How is this "pure alarmism"? How can you not want the best equipment to maintain your safety while in the air? ATC equipment is decades old (barring a few facilities that have some upgrades). Dealing with capacity problems by restricting commercial traffic in and out of airspace like in NY and Chicago instead of upgrading equipment that would help controllers deal with an increased load is backwards.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
YGBSM! .....Stress? Give me a break. Stress of what? Spilling coffee in their lap?

They have high attrition because all the scabs are retiring.

Fuckin' A ... and they're Air Traffic "Advisors" ... they don't control anything. They just like to kid themselves into believing they do ....
 

firefriendly

Member
pilot
Fuckin' A ... and they're Air Traffic "Advisors" ... they don't control anything. They just like to kid themselves into believing they do ....


If you believe ATC isn't "controlling" anything then that would suggest that the pilot is controlling everything; to say that is pretty arrogant. So the next time I'm in the Bravo airspace in Chicago and the controller tells me to turn right to 310 DM2400 and slow to 170kt, I'll just tell him thanks for the advice but I'm going to do it my way; I'm in control. There'd be a total breakdown in the system. I know you're an airline captain but I'm really confused by your post if you were being serious. People respect your opinion around here and some who may not understand the system might get the wrong ideas based on your statement.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
I've got a buddy that started life in the USMC as an air traffic controller, went to the Academy for two years and got booted out on medical. He's working at Kansas City Center right now. His life is good pay wise, but that's about all. He makes six figures (compared to my high five), but works 8-12 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. He couldn't come to my wedding because they aren't letting them take any vacation time because they're short staffed...
 
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