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HeliFOs

bert

Enjoying the real world
pilot
Contributor
Here's my plan: get an officer that doesn't cost 2+million to train to work the staff. Take him/her and send them on short "disassociated" tours to increase their familiarity with the operators and keep aviators in cockpits. :D

Seriously..this would seem so obvious....train less of the more expensive people, use them wisely, and retain them.


You may have mistaken our Navy for one that thinks flying is the most important thing their pilots will do. A good boat tour could probably cure that, but if you are one of those stubborn types that really needs some hard-core reedumacation, can I suggest a sea-going staff? :icon_tong

EDIT: Never mind, I see the jackboot of the Man is already on your neck....
 

Hozer

Jobu needs a refill!
None
Contributor
Here's my plan: get an officer that doesn't cost 2+million to train to work the staff. Take him/her and send them on short "disassociated" tours to increase their familiarity operators and keep aviators in cockpits.

Seriously..this would seem so obvious....train less of the more expensive people, use them wisely, and retain them.

But then we wouldn't be so well-rounded. And our disdain for shoes wouldn't be half as much.:D
 

S.O.B.

Registered User
pilot
You may have mistaken our Navy for one that thinks flying is the most important thing their pilots will do. A good boat tour could probably cure that, but if you are one of those stubborn types that really needs some hard-core reedumacation, can I suggest a sea-going staff? :icon_tong

I'm living it.....personally I think any monkey could do this with about 4wks of training. Sure I'll gain some experience that may or may not make be a better C.O. should I be so lucky. What dose this experience really cost the Navy? 1. We train more pilots to fill the holes $$$. 2)We retain less people do to the suck factor of the disassociated (unavoidable, whether people will name it as their reason for leaving or not it certainly adds salt in the eye) $$$ 3. We have to send the guy back to the FRS when he's done $$$$(.5 mil?)
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Also, increase the SAU presence. Lot's of possibilities there. VT production doesn't happen without these folks.

A discussion we were having yesterday...bout increasing SAUs in the fleet. I guess there are thoughts of following HS-10's lead at -41 and maybe -40.


Fo's in helo's? Hell the ATO is a FO. From what I recall, the nuggets in the left seat were along for the ride most of the time anyway 'til they figured out what was goin on, usually about mid-cruise. But that was when we flew 5-600 hrs on cruise. Give the aircrewman a cyclic and collective, too. Nope, not hover trim either...

I'm generalizing, since obviously I wasn't there for your deployments, but the above method seems like just piss poor training by the det HACs. If the 2P is always in the left seat, he misses out on full exposure. Both my deployments, we cycled seats every other flight. That way they got exposure not just to the sensors and being a good co-pilot, but also that whole flying/pilot thing, which seems to be woefully lacking from HSL now.

Still took them till mid-cruise to figure it out (or longer for some, as you no doubt saw), but at least they didn't atrophy.

Unless they change OPNAV 3710, they'd have to get them to 500 hrs in flight school/RAG. That's an awful long time to train...

Eh, that's an easy fix. Just lower the standards. What? Why are you looking at me like that?
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Fo's in helo's? Hell the ATO is a FO. From what I recall, the nuggets in the left seat were along for the ride most of the time anyway 'til they figured out what was goin on, usually about mid-cruise.

Again, all well and good for the HSL set, but what about those of us who dont know what the hell an ATO is or what they're used for? Might cover some of the HSL missions, but by no means does it cover all the Navy helo missions.
 

Rubiks06

Registered User
pilot
Having a FO in an HSM/HSL/HS bird i think makes sense. The best argument i have heard is we train to be pilots and we train to be NFO's. My FRS is roughly 10 months and that was with 8 studs in the pipeline when i started. There are a few more showing up now so the time to train will probably increase slightly. At the end of the first four months i was NATOPS qualified in the aircraft and the rest was all "ATO" phase of training. SO, if we had an NFO that was an EXPERT at the weapons and sensors would decrease the amount of time the pilot would need to spend in those areas allowing for more time to train to the boat. One of the guys at work put it best. Why train to be the "Jack of all trades, master of none" when we could be the master of one and let them be the master of the other.
As far as vertrep....at least from the Romeo side...we are the fat kids on the playground....fully loaded down moving a 5 gallon pickle barrel could be a challenge. I think a lot of people are approaching this as "a helo is a helo" and i think that mentality should probably change there is a crap load of stuff that the Sierra guys can do that we cant do, and there is a crap load of stuff that we can do that they cant do. I think having an NFO could be beneficial but it would take some integration time. Its not something that i think they could start sending out tomorrow.
Maybe it is something that depending on what mission you have different crew loads. Sierra guys that are doing Vertrep/CSAR probably dont need a FO. Bravo/Romeo/Foxtrot guys that are doing ASUW/ASW having that FO and SO run the picture while the pilot focuses on dip to dip or hitting fly to points for the buoy drops could be beneficial. Everyone is right though its going to come down to $$
 

NozeMan

Are you threatening me?
pilot
Super Moderator
Being a Foxtrot guy, we don't need an NFO. Sure we train for the ASW and ASuW missions, but a we are also supposed to do the SAR, CSAR, log, and NSW missions. Like Pags said, what the hell would a FO do during those missions? We do pax runs, log runs, and are the strike group's SAR asset, none of those require NFOs.

I still defer back to my previous point that flying in a dynamic environment at LOW altitude is more suited for two single anchors up front.
 

Flying Low

Yea sure or Yes Sir?
pilot
Contributor
I am not saying they are saving money on cost to train for a WO in flight school. They will be saving money long term by not having to pay as large of a base pay, BAH, etc. A O-3 >6 gets paid over $1K more a month in base pay than a W-3 >6.


Most of the WO's have more years then 6. Some are sitting on 12-14 years. Here in Pcola BAH is higher for a W-3 than O-3, only by a $1. If you compared a 12 year W-3 to a 6 year O-3 then the cost is pretty close.


Why can't 60's land cross cockpit? We did it all the time in the H-3. There have been times when having another pilot was great. Spend 20 minutes trying to pick up a drone out of the water and you just get worn down. 40ft hover at night (unaided) with the smoke off to the side causing vertigo and then letting the other pilot take controls and fly us out is nice.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Why can't 60's land cross cockpit? We did it all the time in the H-3. There have been times when having another pilot was great. Spend 20 minutes trying to pick up a drone out of the water and you just get worn down. 40ft hover at night (unaided) with the smoke off to the side causing vertigo and then letting the other pilot take controls and fly us out is nice.

Sure you can land a 60 cross cockpit. But another pilot is great for all the reasons you mentioned above.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Having a FO in an HSM/HSL/HS bird i think makes sense. The best argument i have heard is we train to be pilots and we train to be NFO's. My FRS is roughly 10 months and that was with 8 studs in the pipeline when i started. There are a few more showing up now so the time to train will probably increase slightly. At the end of the first four months i was NATOPS qualified in the aircraft and the rest was all "ATO" phase of training. SO, if we had an NFO that was an EXPERT at the weapons and sensors would decrease the amount of time the pilot would need to spend in those areas allowing for more time to train to the boat. One of the guys at work put it best. Why train to be the "Jack of all trades, master of none" when we could be the master of one and let them be the master of the other.
As far as vertrep....at least from the Romeo side...we are the fat kids on the playground....fully loaded down moving a 5 gallon pickle barrel could be a challenge. I think a lot of people are approaching this as "a helo is a helo" and i think that mentality should probably change there is a crap load of stuff that the Sierra guys can do that we cant do, and there is a crap load of stuff that we can do that they cant do. I think having an NFO could be beneficial but it would take some integration time. Its not something that i think they could start sending out tomorrow.
Maybe it is something that depending on what mission you have different crew loads. Sierra guys that are doing Vertrep/CSAR probably dont need a FO. Bravo/Romeo/Foxtrot guys that are doing ASUW/ASW having that FO and SO run the picture while the pilot focuses on dip to dip or hitting fly to points for the buoy drops could be beneficial. Everyone is right though its going to come down to $$

Alright, I'll bite... So when fully loaded, you can't VERTREP. Fine, that's why you don't VERTREP fully loaded. Eventually the Bravo is going to go away, so the Romeo is going to be doing all the non-gucci missions that the Bravo does now and the need for VERTREPing is going to be needed.

You mentioned an "expert" NFO. How will that work in a det concept? The jet guys, generally, will have a salty NFO w/ a nugget and vice versa to spread the experience around. If you did this on det, you're locked in to having even numbers for the aircrew. Not the end of the world, but think about the flexibility you just lost if someone goes med down.

As for tactics, it's not like you, as the pilot, aren't going to be learning the same tactics. You will need to know them just like the NFO so you can execute/anticipate what he's trying to do. Same thing happens now. The pilot is looking over the ATO's shoulder on the MPD and can see what the ATO is doing next. A good ATO/Pilot team will anticipate each others moves and the pilot will have the aircraft in the area that the ATO needs next. Yes, the same thing would happen if you had a NFO, but again, that's because the pilot had to learn the tactics. Not really saving time there.

Specific to the HSL/HSM world, I just don't see how a NFO would be better and/or worth the increase in cost it would take to make the pilot capable of signing for the aircraft the day he steps out of the RAG.

Why can't 60's land cross cockpit?

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't read where anyone said you couldn't. Taking off cross-cockpit, per the rules, is frowned upon.
 

Ducky

Formerly SNA2007
pilot
Contributor
I never heard of this mishap/incident. More details please.

In regards to the s-3 mishap it happened long ago, and it is a story told to us by the sim guys in Meridian when discussing the effects of hail and icing. Supposedly one of the sim guys there was part of the jag review for the incident.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Two points:

Pumas VERTREP single piloted. I don't listen to the other pilot -- just the AW.

The guy in the left seat on a SOF mission / CSAR mission runs the mission: Nav, Comms, FLIR......kinda sounds just like ASW to me.....

And again, the Brits do it.....and everyone has availability issues....
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
So why is it frowned upon?

At night, departing from a small boy cross-cockpit is a no-no. I don't remember if it's Natops or NWP, but the concern is that the cross-cockpit guy can't really see the whips/super-structure and can potentially drift into the ship on the power pull. I'm guessing it's happened at some point, so that's why the rule is there.
 
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