Helicopter Control Officer (HCO) Suggestion Box

[MasterBates]

And if you have an LSO... LET HIM DO HIS JOB!

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[BACONATOR]

If we have a load underneath us, and we've explained that we're inbound for the drop, don't wait until we're OVER the flight deck to call for permission to give us a green deck. Think OUTside the box, and maybe have a green deck ready to go when.... we actually need it!

I was an HCO in my SWO days. SWO captains like to control everything that happens on their boat, for good and ill. Some (like the one Ensign Blackshoe Fester first worked for) seem to regard the helo as a flying RHIB and really do not get - at all - the concept of Aircraft Commander. As far as they're concerned, if it has their boat's name painted on the side, they're in charge of it, period, regardless of what some asshole LT pilot thinks.

Ensign Fester's captain tried to tell the Det OIC that he was 'taking wave off authority' from the pilots, because it was HIS ship, and when he gives a green deck, he wants it on deck NOW. You can imagine how that went over.

My point is this: as hco, especially if you're on a boat without an LSO, your job is to be the SWO who helps the helo, not just a phone talker for the OOD/CO. Know what the fuck you're doing. Study the book, talk to the pilots, and learn your shit.

Your captain sounds exactly like the typical SWO asshole who doesn't know SHIT about air ops..... the type I encountered when flying to a certain boat or two....

 

[squorch2]

Why would you start inbound without a green deck?

 

[KBayDog]

Why would you start inbound without a green deck?

How dare you question Otto.

 

[BACONATOR]

Why would you start inbound without a green deck?

We didn't....

 

[BackOrdered]

My point is this: as hco, especially if you're on a boat without an LSO, your job is to be the SWO who helps the helo, not just a phone talker for the OOD/CO. Know what the fuck you're doing. Study the book, talk to the pilots, and learn your shit.

And if you have an LSO... LET HIM DO HIS JOB!

Sent from my PH44100 using Tapatalk

I did, to death.

I had to counsel an LSO once who didn't do an obvious wave off (I stepped in from the tower) because he was afraid of the CO.

 

[squorch2]

We didn't....

okay, I'll bite - what's the story?

 

[BACONATOR]

okay, I'll bite - what's the story?

Long story short, 2 mile transit for a handful of picks to a certain POS small boy.... let's call her the "mad cow". Green deck. Pick, transit, "hey, on final for the drop", short final.... "hey, 06, red deck!". My HAC at the time "NOPE!" and we dropped.

After that ship had repeatedly given us a hard time that cruise, we basically told a Navy Captain to go fuck him/herself through an HCO intermediary. ON another occasion, they gave us a red deck after like 4 of 6 picks with plenty of deck space left, so we said "Ok, call us when you're ready, we're going to service other customers who are ready for us". 10 minutes later, they come back with "Hey, can we get our last two picks?!" "Nope we got pax on board". "Can't you get us our 2 last picks with those pax?". "Nope". (read: EEFFFFF YOOOOOOU).

 

[Gatordev]

If we have a load underneath us, and we've explained that we're inbound for the drop, don't wait until we're OVER the flight deck to call for permission to give us a green deck. Think OUTside the box, and maybe have a green deck ready to go when.... we actually need it!

I'm not saying this is the case for your ship, but I've seen cases where the LSO and/or the HCO have been putting the request in in a timely manner but the OOD can't find the CO. Sometimes, it happens by accident, but I've seen some COs who know we're going to flight quarters but will be unreachable for 15 minutes (no phone) while doing some sort of evolution that was also scheduled on the Menu...I mean POD.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As an attached LAMPS det on deployment, if the bridge and combat suck at emergencies or understanding what you ask for, it's not their fault, it's the fault of the det. When I was an OIC, I couldn't be mad at the OODs when they'd had no training. So after watching them be assholes and elbows during an emergency and also when I was in the helo and watch them have no idea why the big gray noisy thing was hovering off the bridge wing flashing its lights, I went to the CO and told him his OODs needed training. He happened to be an awesome Captain and we scheduled training and I gave a brief for the O's as well as an emergency drill. Low and behold, they improved because someone cared enough to train them. Next real emergency flight quarters, everything went much smoother and the bird was on deck in minutes.

 

[BACONATOR]

I'm not saying this is the case for your ship, but I've seen cases where the LSO and/or the HCO have been putting the request in in a timely manner but the OOD can't find the CO. Sometimes, it happens by accident, but I've seen some COs who know we're going to flight quarters but will be unreachable for 15 minutes (no phone) while doing some sort of evolution that was also scheduled on the Menu...I mean POD.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As an attached LAMPS det on deployment, if the bridge and combat suck at emergencies or understanding what you ask for, it's not their fault, it's the fault of the det. When I was an OIC, I couldn't be mad at the OODs when they'd had no training. So after watching them be assholes and elbows during an emergency and also when I was in the helo and watch them have no idea why the big gray noisy thing was hovering off the bridge wing flashing its lights, I went to the CO and told him his OODs needed training. He happened to be an awesome Captain and we scheduled training and I gave a brief for the O's as well as an emergency drill. Low and behold, they improved because someone cared enough to train them. Next real emergency flight quarters, everything went much smoother and the bird was on deck in minutes.

I'm sure what you're saying is true, but in the worst cases I experienced, we'd ask for green deck to start vertreping, and hear "ok, roger. Your green deck is now on request", so clearly they didn't do a bit of legwork beforehand, until the moment we asked for it. I mean, I get that you're a worthless ENS, but seriously.... if a VERTREP evolution is scheduled to start when the whirly bird is off deck, maybe be a little pro-active and call the OOD for it, when you hear us checking in, and not sit there fat dumb and happy until we ask for it.

 

[Gatordev]

I'm sure what you're saying is true, but in the worst cases I experienced, we'd ask for green deck to start vertreping, and hear "ok, roger. Your green deck is now on request", so clearly they didn't do a bit of legwork beforehand, until the moment we asked for it. I mean, I get that you're a worthless ENS, but seriously.... if a VERTREP evolution is scheduled to start when the whirly bird is off deck, maybe be a little pro-active and call the OOD for it, when you hear us checking in, and not sit there fat dumb and happy until we ask for it.

There's good ships and bad ships, good HCOs and HCOs that struggle. Just understand that the HCO (or LSO) is only one link in the chain and sometimes even the OOD is trying to be proactive but is stone-walled by the CO.

Sounds like you just had a ship that didn't understand professionalism extended to Air Ops. Not the first and not the last, unfortunately.

 

[CAMike]

I was an HCO in my SWO days. SWO captains like to control everything that happens on their boat, for good and ill. Some (like the one Ensign Blackshoe Fester first worked for) seem to regard the helo as a flying RHIB and really do not get - at all - the concept of Aircraft Commander. As far as they're concerned, if it has their boat's name painted on the side, they're in charge of it, period, regardless of what some asshole LT pilot thinks.

Ensign Fester's captain tried to tell the Det OIC that he was 'taking wave off authority' from the pilots, because it was HIS ship, and when he gives a green deck, he wants it on deck NOW. You can imagine how that went over.

My point is this: as hco, especially if you're on a boat without an LSO, your job is to be the SWO who helps the helo, not just a phone talker for the OOD/CO. Know what the fuck you're doing. Study the book, talk to the pilots, and learn your shit.

And after you come aboard a ship like that- treat the SWOJO's as you would "friends". They have to live that micro-managed mentality every day. Big Navy deserves better. I had a SELRES experience of THAT CO for 6 months in 1987. It was horrible for the Active Duty JO's aboard. 25 years later I still have an empty feeling in my stomach for those poor JO's who were AD on the Lang. To this day it brings me down just thinking about it. Remember Airdales- we're all part of the larger team that kicks a.. and takes names.

 

[jtmedli]

And after you come aboard a ship like that- treat the SWOJO's as you would "friends". They have to live that micro-managed mentality every day. Big Navy deserves better. I had a SELRES experience of THAT CO for 6 months in 1987. It was horrible for the Active Duty JO's aboard. 25 years later I still have an empty feeling in my stomach for those poor JO's who were AD on the Lang. To this day it brings me down just thinking about it. Remember Airdales- we're all part of the larger team that kicks a.. and takes names.

So pardon my ignorance, but if all the JOs and other SWO hinges know that the command climate sucks and the way they do things is terrible then why hasn't it changed in 20+ years? I have a friend from OCS who was the most motivated headstrong female I'd ever seen and her post on Facebook yesterday said, "Screw this, in 3 years I'm outta here". (She's a swo btw).

 

[squorch2]

I'm sure what you're saying is true, but in the worst cases I experienced, we'd ask for green deck to start vertreping, and hear "ok, roger. Your green deck is now on request", so clearly they didn't do a bit of legwork beforehand, until the moment we asked for it. I mean, I get that you're a worthless ENS, but seriously.... if a VERTREP evolution is scheduled to start when the whirly bird is off deck, maybe be a little pro-active and call the OOD for it, when you hear us checking in, and not sit there fat dumb and happy until we ask for it.

I've been the dude in the tower trying to get green deck - it's not easy, even on a USNS where your sole job that day is to replenish the carrier. The long and the short of it is that there are a lot of moving pieces on a ship, even more so when you restrict it with a green deck, and VERTREP just ain't that important that the CO/master will drop everything so you're not waiting while airborne.

I'd also argue against dropping loads on red decks, but hey, who knows.

 

[BACONATOR]

I've been the dude in the tower trying to get green deck - it's not easy, even on a USNS where your sole job that day is to replenish the carrier. The long and the short of it is that there are a lot of moving pieces on a ship, even more so when you restrict it with a green deck, and VERTREP just ain't that important that the CO/master will drop everything so you're not waiting while airborne.

I'd also argue against dropping loads on red decks, but hey, who knows.

So have I. Like I said, I KNOW sometimes you are at the mercy of the Master/CO, but it becomes painfully obvious when the person in the tower's hands are tied and he's on top of what's going on, and when he's hanging on by the fantail and fucking clueless. Also, part of CRM, it's called "communication", and when I was delayed getting something for the bird, I'd call em up and tell them what was going on and/or why we couldn't get them what they wanted and/or a TIMELINE as to when to expect what. "Hey, we're changing course for winds, expect 5 mikes for green deck".

But short of some weird circumstances, on a USNS, it was as simple as calling the bridge and requesting green deck. Usually that call was delegated without having to track down the Master every time to see if he'd deign to give us green deck.

"Bridge, tower. Request green deck"
"green deck"
"KR 06, Green deck for breakdown and launch"

All in a matter of a minute.