Harrier question

[MasterBates]

The oddities of the USMC never cease to amaze me....

When HSL Dets get attached to some other command, normally a ship, we still get our fitreps from our own CO.

 

[phrogdriver]

The individuals get observed on a daily basis by their superiors in a composite squadron, vice their home commands, so it only makes sense that they get their fitreps from there.

It may be a weird setup, but it does work. MEUs got a huge share of contingency ops until OIF started, and those were primary assault support missions--NEOs, VBSS, embassy reinforcement, etc.

Maybe the other communities don't like it, but would it really make sense of have 12 Harriers and 6 Phrogs? Medium lift enables the manuever element for the MEU commander. They are what makes the MEU, the MEU.

As far as "phrogburn," maybe that's true as far as getting key billets, but I've seen one Harrier det that made themselves at home and one that didn't, who acted as if they had a parallel chain of command. I know which ones got better fitreps at the end of the deployment.

 

[USMC Helo Bubba]

As far as "phrogburn," maybe that's true as far as getting key billets, but I've seen one Harrier det that made themselves at home and one that didn't, who acted as if they had a parallel chain of command. I know which ones got better fitreps at the end of the deployment.

Ditto above.

The "burn" can go both ways. On one of my pumps, the Harrier det OIC was the S-1 officer. Eacvh and every Harrier pilot on the det got a comm or higher at the end of the float. Too bad they didnt take care of thier enlisted as well!

 

[Semper Jump Jet]

Yes, the ACE, the "Adams Family" of Aviation. Duh Duh Duh DUH. (Snap Snap). Amusing if you're watching from a distance.

Are there any more Phrog guys here who can tell me how great it is for me when I join your squadron?

 

[BigIron]

..We all (including 53s and U/A H-1's) integrate into HMMs when we deploy on the MEU.

How many HMMs go on float, and then who gets what?

 

[USMC Helo Bubba]

Yes, the ACE, the "Adams Family" of Aviation. Duh Duh Duh DUH. (Snap Snap). Amusing if you're watching from a distance.

Are there any more Phrog guys here who can tell me how great it is for me when I join your squadron?

I don't remember anyone trying to tell you it was great.

 

[phrogdriver]

Great, maybe not, but it is what you make it. I don't think the shitters, Hueys, and Cobras are this bent over it. Like I said, of my two MEU pumps, we had one det that whole-heartedly joined the squadron and one that didn't. The first type was better for them and us. Maybe they were secret nursing inner turmoil and putting on their happy faces, but I don't think so.

It's a MAGTF. Different pieces get lumped on. You don't always get to pick your rice-bowl. I was even part of an HML/A during a Special Purpose MAGTF once. Worked fine. Adapt, overcome, oohrah, oohrah, all that jazz.

Do go back to another question, before OIF, there was generally one MEU deployed out of each coast at any given time, plus an oddly structured one out of Okinawa on a different cycle. At the same time, each coast had another doing its 6-months of pre-deployment training.

 

[Harrier Dude]

...we had one det that whole-heartedly joined the squadron ...

For those wondering, this means agreeing with 100% of whatever the nearest phrog guy wants to do, abdicating any control you have over your training or personnel, gleefully forcing your flying to conform to phrog ways, and generally singing the praises of the CH-46 at all times.

Otherwise you're labelled a primadonna and a non-team player. This isn't just a Harrier thing. On the MEU it's all phrogs, all the time. That's the party line, so either toe it, or stand the F by.

 

[USMC Helo Bubba]

This isn't just a Harrier thing. On the MEU it's all phrogs, all the time. That's the party line, so either toe it, or stand the F by.

Not just a Harrier thing? - funny you don't hear the CH-53 or skid bubbas whining about the MEU structure -- maybe it is a Harrier thing??

 

[phrogpilot73]

How many HMMs go on float, and then who gets what?

Just one.

A MEU is comprised of:
1. Command Element (MEU Staff)
2. Ground Combat Element (Battalion Landing Team - Infantry Battalion with AAV Platoon, Recon Platoon, Tank Platoon, Artillery Battery, and Engineer Platoon)
3. Air Combat Element (Composite Squadron, beat to death in this thread)
4. MEU Service Support Element (MEU Service Support Group).

Not just a Harrier thing? - funny you don't hear the CH-53 or skid bubbas whining about the MEU structure -- maybe it is a Harrier thing??

I've heard them bitch, just not as much. Again, I think it all depends on the Harrier det, and how they act. My first MEU we had probably the world's worst Harrier Det. It was so bad, that if they walked into the wardroom for lunch, saw a half empty table with Phrog/Shitter/Skid guys sitting there, they would look at us and walk over to a table across the wardroom. With the exception of one pilot, I think I spoke a sum total of 6 words to each of their pilots the entire float. You would try and engage in conversation and they would answer with single word responses. Painful at best.

My second MEU, the Harrier det was great. They would actively engage with every T/M/S and truly integrated in the squadron. Methinks that Phrog "burn" comes from the first example, and not the second.

My other theory is that look at how the chop period goes down. On chop day, they tow the 53's, AH's and UH's over to the Phrog line and all the pilots/crew/maintainers/support move into the Phrog squadron's spaces. Think about how painful those first few months are. When do you start working with the Harriers? Not really until you're midway through your workups. We've already smoothed over the problems with our other T/M/S brethern, and have worked closely with them every day. That process really doesn't start until we go on float since they're up at NKT the whole time.

As for bowing down to the Phrog and how great it is, etc... Like that isn't prevalent in every other community. I don't care if you can lift my house, go fast and hover, shoot hellfires, or that you are so much more than C&C. I love my aircraft as much as you love yours. In the end, it's all one squadron and like it or not - Medium Lift Assault Support is the backbone of Marine Aviation.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Not just a Harrier thing? - funny you don't hear the CH-53 or skid bubbas whining about the MEU structure -- maybe it is a Harrier thing??

Thanks for making my point for me. Either agree with the phrogs, or get labeled as a whiner.

I would agree that the Harriers suffer more in a flying capacity, but the overall impact of joining another communities squadron are about the same.

Funny you should mention MEU structure. Why do we continue to do things this way? Since we are supposed to task organize a MAGTF, why is every MEU ACE the same when our potential missions for each deployment differ?

Why not bring more 53s? Less Harriers? More Harriers? No Harriers? Anything different?

Because that's not the way we've always done it.

Why not create an ACE around an HMH?

The real answer is we just don't have enough 53s. The fact is we could get more done, better, with less aircraft if we used 53s.

Why not make the ACE CO a slated command and attach whatever he believes best supports his mission sets?

Because the phrog community beileves that they are the only people capable of commanding a MEU ACE.

Why not a 53 guy? A Prowler NFO? A KC-130 pilot? Or, God forbid, an AV-8 pilot? Are we not all MAGTF officers?

I'm waiting in anticipation for you to enlighten me on this issue. Please don't forget to tell the masses that the phrog can land in smaller zones and can stop faster than a 53.

 

[bert]

For those wondering, this means agreeing with 100% of whatever the nearest phrog guy wants to do, abdicating any control you have over your training or personnel, gleefully forcing your flying to conform to phrog ways, and generally singing the praises of the CH-46 at all times.

I had the opportunity to be a third-party participant in 8 BG workup/SOCEX's (and all the other names they evolved into), each one with at least a couple of different components to the ACE. With the phrogs already starting from the dominant position, it was really the attitude of the OIC's of the other elements that had the largest influence on the amount of disfunction in the ACE. The guys who walked through the door moaning about how the boot of the phrog-man was going to be getting them down invariably had a miserable experience, while the folks who thought that all the guys in green were on the same team had little or no problems.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Funny you should mention MEU structure. Why do we continue to do things this way? Since we are supposed to task organize a MAGTF, why is every MEU ACE the same when our potential missions for each deployment differ?

Why not bring more 53s? Less Harriers? More Harriers? No Harriers? Anything different?

You are flat out wrong. My first MEU (in early '03, as OIF was looming on the horizon) we were task organized with 12 Phrogs, 6 Shitters, 6 Cobras, 6 Harriers, and 2 Hueys. The MEU that went out before us had 12 Phrogs, 8 Shitters, 4 Cobras, 4 Harriers, and 2 Hueys. The last MEU I went on had 12 Phrogs, 4 Shitters, 4 Cobras, 6 Harriers, and 2 Hueys. Don't forget the Super MEU that HMM-264 went on several years back that had an ungodly amount of aircraft. They are task oriented. The only consistency seems to be 12 Phrogs (the whole HMM) and the 2 Hueys (not enough birds to support any more I'm guessing.)

Why not create an ACE around an HMH?

The real answer is we just don't have enough 53s. The fact is we could get more done, better, with less aircraft if we used 53s.

Please don't forget to tell the masses that the phrog can land in smaller zones and can stop faster than a 53.

You're correct that we don't build it around an HMH, because we don't have enough Shitters. There's 6 Phrog/Osprey squadrons at New River as opposed to 2 Shitter squadrons. As for doing more, better with less aircraft - that's wrong. Medium lift exists for more reasons than just smaller zones and stopping faster. Think Humanitarian Assistance - In Liberia, the embassy pad can only land a single 53 or 46. 46's were the preferred option because of rotor wash. Think NEO - Some LZ's might be on top of buildings - the 53 grossly outweighs the Phrog, so there are simply some rooftop LZ's that a 53 can't land on. Think CASEVAC - this is where the tight LZ comes into play - point of injury could be accomplished by a Phrog or a Huey, but not by a Shitter. You can't do everything with a Shitter, nor can you do everything with a Phrog, or a Huey, or a Cobra, or a Harrier. Hence the Composite Squadron.

Why not make the ACE CO a slated command and attach whatever he believes best supports his mission sets?

Because the phrog community beileves that they are the only people capable of commanding a MEU ACE.

Why not a 53 guy? A Prowler NFO? A KC-130 pilot? Or, God forbid, an AV-8 pilot? Are we not all MAGTF officers?

I agree wholeheartedly that an ACE CO should be a slated command. As it is right now, if you're slated for command of a Phrog squadron that's going on a MEU, you're slated to be an ACE CO. I personally disagree with this. As for an AV-8 pilot, I'd rather slash my wrists than serve under a jet fag...

 

[USMC Helo Bubba]

Why not make the ACE CO a slated command and attach whatever he believes best supports his mission sets?

Why not a 53 guy? A Prowler NFO? A KC-130 pilot? Or, God forbid, an AV-8 pilot? Are we not all MAGTF officers?

QUOTE]

Great idea and a valid point - I agree that we are all MAGTF officers and that would be one way to crack the nut - BTW, I never said that the only guy who can be an ACE CO is a phrog guy - those were your words. If I showed up and the ACE CO was a Harrier, Prowler, Hornet, Shitter, or Skid guy - wouldn't phase me a bit - I would do my job the same as if it was a phrog guy.

However, unless he was an AV-8 guy (which I know several that are more than capable of being a MEU ACE CO), you would probably just be bitching about "Prowler Burn", or "Shitter Burn"

 

[Semper Jump Jet]

I personally disagree with this. As for an AV-8 pilot, I'd rather slash my wrists than serve under a jet fag...

I DID try to slash my wrists, on the 31st MEU. As I lay there bleeding in the forward head, 3 Phrog guys came in, handed me a 4 inch thick 'smart pack' and dragged me to a 2 hour brief on how to scan your instruments during brown-out conditions in a dusty LZ. I'm not sure if I died and went to hell or if the Navy docs pulled me through, because when I woke up I was still on the MEU, and I couldn't tell the difference!