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Going straight to a reserve unit after winging?

FlyBoyd

Out to Pasture
pilot
I'll chime in here since I was involved with this decision. This "program" was invented to address a specific need. That is approx 150 SNAa fat already in primary. Fleet needs changed drastically (which is a whole nother thread) and we were fat. I won't get into the options available other than this one but suffice it to say we ended up here with all parties somewhat satisfied. I don't see this happening again without another unforseen change inside the training pipeline fence. SNA's will continue to pool before training at API which is the better/cost efficient business model.


They should never have any vols from Primary for VR... folks there should want to put warheads on foreheads or help others do it. If not, what the hell did they join for?????????

FYI...although we asked for volunteers initially there weren't enough so voluntolds filled the rest.

They should cull the excess from training pipeline (needs of navy, sorry bout yo luck) and use the sunken cost put into the fleet aviators with leadership experience for FTS who have "paid their dues". That's just my experiential perspective.

This had been the prefered method but cutting guys mid pipeline proved to be more/too expensive both financially and politically. Talk to someone in the early 90s RIF and you'll know what I mean. We were under specific direction (read multiple Stars on the shoulder) to not go down that road. I am not saying it was a perfect fit but it was the best decision using all the info presented at the time. Some of that info includes PERS and the VR Commodore saying they had a manning need and could use the extras we would produce. As always, there are unintended/unforeseen circumstances after the fact.

Also, keep in mind that the makeup of a VR squadron has morphed through the years into what you see now i.e. more senior dudes. It was not too long ago (2000) that you could transfer to FTS (then TAR) before your MSR was even up. In fact when you view the desired manning numbers/distribution at BUPERS you will see that O-4s are actually filling O-2/3 spots. The original concept had a more normal amount of junior guys but with the increase in commitment (wings + 7/8) and the requirement to stay until your MSR, the squadrons have become more senior by default.

So, to the OP and other interested parties....

Don't expect this to ever happen again. If it does, you won't see it coming.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
The program is no longer. As mentioned, it addressed a specific need to trim excess pilot capacity that couldn't have been trimmed via training command cuts (pilots were already at their operational squadrons).

The folks that went were able to sign for planes and are on a normal career track.
 

MAKE VAPES

Uncle Pettibone
pilot
There must have been some distinction between the VR and helo guys then. Our kids came straight from VT-31, 2 had been to multiple of PRB's, 1 had no issues. I,for one, am glad the program is no more, it sets the wrong tone for the future ass kickers. Nowadays we need drone pilots right???
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
2 of the 3 kids they sent to our VR squadron did ok, made TAC, whined a ton (without fleet experience, and O-5 Delta buddy buddies, they had no sense of reality) and got picked up for FTS ahead of fleet dudes wanting the same gig (wtfo, junior most qualified my ass...).

Career killer? Since the career path is written from the 9-10 year point on (from transfer/redesignation)... there is no career path to speak of for the "nuggets". If any of them would have bent a jet as a JG/very junior LT TAC, there would have been hell to pay (we would do some tactical scheduling for them, so in the end what was the point of them making TAC). I know P-3 dudes fly big planes and sign young, but there is a rigorous training regiment to get there... not so much in VR where they count on foundation of fleet experience to provide sound decision making prowess. They tried to add the rigor fwiw.

IMO, Since VR is there to serve the fleet, the fleet deserves fleet experienced pilots at the helm of their transports. Who do you want up front after your third go around for weather going into Lajes when weather is sketchy at Santa Maria? Someone who has faced the music behind the boat in a prowler/off the coast of china in a P-3/landing a SH-60 on a fig on a stormy night.... or a slightly below average transferee from T-44s with 600TT?

.

I don't get the problem. Are you saying that a C-9 transport doing admin missions requires more skill than the tactical aircraft this j.g./LT would normally be assigned to? If the squadron has been doing its job, the junior ACs should be prepared. Getting a cush TAR job is by no means a right of senior pilots. We tell the young'ns "shut up, needs of the Nav/MC" all the time. Sometimes we have to take our own advice.

It's not ideal, but come on. If you have a pile excess dirt laying around on one side of your yard and a hole on the other, then why not use some of the excess dirt to fill the hole?
 

MAKE VAPES

Uncle Pettibone
pilot
The reason it all worked out is because, either by teaching skill or pure dumb luck, they never cracked up an airplane... Like I said before, to mitigate the risk we tactically scheduled these "kids" (at least in our squadron) with very experienced airline pilots, watched the weather, and stan board had to develop the rigor of the syllabus.

Can you imagine the mishap report damnation from X airlines when a 600TT "captain" augers in with 90 fleet bubbas on board? It would never happen, and if it did happen in VR airlines, the world would wonder why the "kids" were there. If you noted that it wasn't ideal, then you get why I think we shouldn't have done it. Admin or tactical, doesn't make a shitting bit of difference, if the big wing airlines don't do it, neither should we... There are some gotchas flying the old DC-9's, even after Tomcats and Goshawk "tactical" stuff, I was glad that I had the time under my belt... I watched the nuggets on check rides, if the answer wasn't in the book, they would have an incredibly hard time formulating one from past experience.

When shit happens, anyone can be a hero or a goat, previous flight experience doesn't necessarily mean you will have the perfect plan and execution for such, but it does increase ones propensity for it. Just ask yourself: who you would want up front with your wife and kids in the plane space A in shitty weather, 600TT "cush good deal getting" nugget, or a fleet experienced 3300 hour fixed wing time former TRACOM pilot?

Your trust and confidence may be vastly different than the folks Ive discussed this with, if your answer is the former not the latter.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Vapes, you have some points, but how is this different from a 1st tour COD LT flying with a full PAX load TO THE FREAKIN BOAT or a Marine C-130 Capt/1stLt flying that many troops in the back of a plane?

Marine Capt with a 2nd Lt fresh out of the TRACOM plows a -130 in with all hands lost is different than a USN LT augering a C-9 or C-40 in how?

I don't know enough about the USAF, but do they not allow 1st tour 1LT/Capt to sign for the big ass transports?
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I don't know enough about the USAF, but do they not allow 1st tour 1LT/Capt to sign for the big ass transports?

I don't know what their SOP is, but the C-5 that ran off the runway at NGU a few years ago (and briefly shut down 564) had an O-3 at the controls. Got a bit confused with runway lighting and signage on a dark-rainy night.

C5.jpg
 

MAKE VAPES

Uncle Pettibone
pilot
how is this different from a 1st tour COD LT flying with a full PAX load TO THE FREAKIN BOAT or a Marine C-130 Capt/1stLt flying that many troops in the back of a plane?

Marine Capt with a 2nd Lt fresh out of the TRACOM plows a -130 in with all hands lost is different than a USN LT augering a C-9 or C-40 in how?

1st tour COD pilot has been through a RIGOROUS syllabus, so has Marine C-130 pilot, P-3 has PPC board (are there boards for 3p/2p?). No FRS for VR squadrons, individual stan boards tried to come up with their own syllabi but it can't duplicate what kids do in depth at FRS and squadron. Stan boards consist of O-5 airline pilots, some of whom are loyal only to the ching of the 2 AFTP's they'll get, and why waste an RMP on training the next generation when you can work on your Fedex schedule? (I know, shit can em... it isn't that easy, they've been in the squadron 10 years to your 1.5, they drink beer with skipper). This resulted in some coddling of these youngsters, and developed a potato like leadership capability. Say the word IA around these kids and watch them freak out, protest... acting like they are tooooooo good to go.

I guess the point of the banter is moot, as it has been submitted that kids from Maritime Advanced won't be sent VR again... hope I clarified my point of view...
 
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webmaster

The Grass is Greener!
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
....P-3 has PPC board (are there boards for 3p/2p?). ...
There are multiple hurdles to overcome to finally sign for a P3. FRS syllabus, Copilot NX, 3P board (some squadrons), 2P board, squadron P3QS and flights/sims, PPC board, Aircraft Commander check ride, and tactical check ride. Not to mention the mentoring by the crew aircraft commander and 2P, in addition to the in place oversight of Pilot Training and the Instructor Pilot cadre.

I had the opportunity to fly with NALO VR crews quite extensively over the last 2 years. This subject came up a couple times, and the lack of an indepth training pipeline for these specific transition pilots.
 

HighFox

New Member
Depends on what career you want

This option was available when the entire officer community was overmanned. Some officers were given the chance to go straight to reserve units in order to reduce the number of officers on the active duty list. This is just one strategy that NPC can use to shrink numbers when needed, if there are no overmanning issues then the option won't be offered.

As for being a career killer? Reserve careers and active duty careers are two separate subjects. Each aviation community has a standard career path and the person who will have the latest info on that is the active or reserve detailer for that community. As a young student aviator you are best served to study and get through all the training commands as fast as possible rather than worry about career options right now. You will have plenty of opportunity to discuss career guidance with folks in your first tour. Once you have met your MSR you can apply for FTS or go Reserve.

The thing about training commands is there is no shortage of rumors and gouge. Live by the gouge, die by the gouge. Concentrate on knowing everything there is to know about your platform and be a professional Naval Officer and the rest will fall into place.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
This option was available when the entire officer community was overmanned...words...

Not to be rude, but did you read the rest of the replies? Or just the OP's post? The question's been answered (it has happened, not happening now, if it happens again you won't know ahead of time), and the rest is just meandering conversation about whether VR's should be the Old Guy Wildlife Preserves they are now.

Welcome aboard, btw.
 

HighFox

New Member
Thanks for the welcome aboard, I did read the other posts and that is why I as a former detailer during that era decided to reply so the kid who originally posted the question would have the most valuable info to be able to make an informed decision or opinion.
 

FlyBoyd

Out to Pasture
pilot
As for being a career killer? Reserve careers and active duty careers are two separate subjects. Each aviation community has a standard career path...

Correct...but be advised there are two major differences. Command billets are few and promotion to 0-5 is very limited within the FTS community. FTS (1317) promotion to O-5 has steadily declined and was 29% (in zone) last year. Active duty (1310) promotion was 80% (in-zone) to 0-5. You have to have a superior record to get FTS. Assuming that.... you are a shoe-in for O-5 (active duty) and a player for command. On the FTS side, command is all but off the table and the promotion rates have declined steadily over the last 6 years i.e. FY-03 58% FY-09 29%. So if you go FTS you will have a 70% chance (20% Active Duty) at being forced out at 20 yrs. This was not well advertised in the past so I post it here in hopes of educating the masses to some of the real differences between Active Duty and FTS promotion rates.

1317 page 2 http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/183241A1-E452-47CB-860E-880F7042EC0B/0/FY09USNRO5Linestats.pdf

1310 page 1 http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/7A2FB57A-9A50-4C84-9873-67F482B09FF8/0/FY09USNO5Linestats.pdf

Reserve stats archive for FY-03 thru 08 http://www.npc.navy.mil/Boards/ReserveOfficer/Archive/default.htm

Active Duty stats archive FY-03 thur 08 http://www.npc.navy.mil/Boards/ActiveDutyOfficer/Archive/default.htm
 
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