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GLOCK vs SIG -- trigger time.
- Thread starter Junkball
- Start date
Was watching a History Channel special on the M16 and the last 5 mins they talked about the HK416, I was very impressed. I'm very tempted to wait get one of those when they become available to the public. It would give me a little more time to save up too....
Going shooting at Styx River today for my concealed carry class...will post on the P229 for those interested.
Going shooting at Styx River today for my concealed carry class...will post on the P229 for those interested.
So went to the range yesterday. Shot about 400 rds of .22 from a Glock conversion kit provided by my concealed carry instructor. After shooting all those rds of .22 I switched to a Glock 9mm, and then to my Sig P229 SAS in .40 S&W.
A few things to be said about the Sig:
It is a great gun, in great condition. Has had less than 500 rds through it, it fits so well in my hand, and the recoil is almost nothing. The downside however, is two-fold:
First, when I started shooting the Sig I immediately noticed a decrease in my accuracy from the Glock. All my shots were low which my instructor told me is a grip problem with most guns except the Glock. Glock changed the grip angle so that you don't break your wrist as much and the gun isn't naturally pointing down.
Secondly, the Sig is big and it is heavy, I mean REALLY heavy. According to my instructor Sigs are generally about 23% heavier than it's Glock counterpart. For me that creates a problem because I want a handgun that I can use for concealed carry. Not that there's anything wrong with carrying the P229, but it is ginormous.
So this leaves me with several options:
1. Keep the Sig as a home defense pistol and buy something smaller to carry.
2. Trade the Sig for a gun of the same caliber, but smaller for HD and carry.
3. Just carry the Sig.
After self-debate, I'm leaning towards a trade because it saves some money and if I trade for a Glock I can get the .22 conversion kit and save some money on ammo at the range. The only problem is finding a fair trade because the Sig is worth close to $200 more than the Glock 23 which is the compact .40 S&W. Going to check out the gun show this weekend in P-cola. Will bring my Sig along to see if I can find a good deal. Any opinions would be greatly welcomed, and if anyone is interested and has an offer that would be welcomed also.
A few things to be said about the Sig:
It is a great gun, in great condition. Has had less than 500 rds through it, it fits so well in my hand, and the recoil is almost nothing. The downside however, is two-fold:
First, when I started shooting the Sig I immediately noticed a decrease in my accuracy from the Glock. All my shots were low which my instructor told me is a grip problem with most guns except the Glock. Glock changed the grip angle so that you don't break your wrist as much and the gun isn't naturally pointing down.
Secondly, the Sig is big and it is heavy, I mean REALLY heavy. According to my instructor Sigs are generally about 23% heavier than it's Glock counterpart. For me that creates a problem because I want a handgun that I can use for concealed carry. Not that there's anything wrong with carrying the P229, but it is ginormous.
So this leaves me with several options:
1. Keep the Sig as a home defense pistol and buy something smaller to carry.
2. Trade the Sig for a gun of the same caliber, but smaller for HD and carry.
3. Just carry the Sig.
After self-debate, I'm leaning towards a trade because it saves some money and if I trade for a Glock I can get the .22 conversion kit and save some money on ammo at the range. The only problem is finding a fair trade because the Sig is worth close to $200 more than the Glock 23 which is the compact .40 S&W. Going to check out the gun show this weekend in P-cola. Will bring my Sig along to see if I can find a good deal. Any opinions would be greatly welcomed, and if anyone is interested and has an offer that would be welcomed also.
Since you seem to be leaning Glock...
For good concealment, I'd recommend a Glock 26 or 27 (9mm or .40S&W). I carry a G26 in a little IWB holster, usually with a small magazine extension. Sometimes I'll just carry it Condition 3 and toss it unholstered in a pocket. Without the mag extension it fits in the pouch under my bicycle seat (no gay jokes!) It's small but still packs 10+1 of 9mm. I love my Baby Glock---I can really bring it everywhere.
The G23 is a fine weapon, but it is uncomfortable in an IWB due to its larger size. If you centerline it, it WILL poke your sack. Carrying OWB can be tough unless you like to wear baggy shirts (I don't). When I lived up north I carried my Glock 21SF a lot because I was wearing a jacket six months out of the year. Down here she rarely gets hip time.
And I hear what you're saying about the grip angle. For me, it's very natural. If I draw another pistol it wants to point into the dirt.
For good concealment, I'd recommend a Glock 26 or 27 (9mm or .40S&W). I carry a G26 in a little IWB holster, usually with a small magazine extension. Sometimes I'll just carry it Condition 3 and toss it unholstered in a pocket. Without the mag extension it fits in the pouch under my bicycle seat (no gay jokes!) It's small but still packs 10+1 of 9mm. I love my Baby Glock---I can really bring it everywhere.
The G23 is a fine weapon, but it is uncomfortable in an IWB due to its larger size. If you centerline it, it WILL poke your sack. Carrying OWB can be tough unless you like to wear baggy shirts (I don't). When I lived up north I carried my Glock 21SF a lot because I was wearing a jacket six months out of the year. Down here she rarely gets hip time.
And I hear what you're saying about the grip angle. For me, it's very natural. If I draw another pistol it wants to point into the dirt.
Wow, so what would you think of the P226? It fits my bear paws well but I've always wondered if the smaller gun will feel too leetle.
IMHO shooting a pistol well is much more of an individual thing than is shooting a rifle well. For the most part if you can shoot one kind of rifle well you can probably shoot another just about as well. That's not true for me with a pistol.
I used to own a Sig P220 and it was an absolute Cadillac of a weapon. I can't believe I sold it. The best group I ever shot with a pistol I shot with the Sig, single action slow fire at 15 yards. I got rid of it because I couldn't shoot it worth a damn fast and or under pressure. To me self-defense/action shooting with a pistol is all about muscle memory (natural point of aim) and consistency. Getting good (not perfect) hits as fast as possible is all that matters.
For the life of me when the clock is running I can't do the long double action first shot and single action follow up shots well. I may as well throw the first and the second shot away because I'm never sure where they are going. By round 3 I'm settled down again but once I decock and holster the weapon it starts all over again. If I was able to shoot 500 double action rounds a week I'm sure I'd feel differently.
For the kind of shooting I do I'd much rather shoot a single action 1911 or a "safe action" like a Glock (or S&W M&P) or even something double action only, because each is consistant. I qualifed expert in the Corps with a 1911 so that's my sentimental favorite. That said, by far what I shoot best fast is a Glock 19. The combination of 18 rounds, the way it fits my hand, low recoil, and aftermarket 3.5 lb trigger makes it a no brainer for me. The 1911/big bore bigot in me struggles with it but that's the way it is.
Stock for stock, agreed---assuming the SIG is a DAO. I can't stand DA/SA.
But you really have to fire a Glock with a worked trigger. 3.5lb spring and all of the armorer voodoo...it's very nice. A buddy of mine is NYPD and they install heavier 'NYPD springs" in their Glocks. It makes it notchy, grainy, and a 12lb pull. Sucks.
Agree completely. The Sig's lonnnng first pull is smooth as silk and the single action is crisp. (It's light years better than say HK's or the M9's double action.)
What gives me fits is the combination of the long first shot and short follow up. It doesn't bother me if I'm standing flat footed taking my time, it bothers me when I'm moving or trying to shoot fast.
Again it's a personal thing. I can appreciate the Sig's quality and slow fire accuracy over a Glock. I can appreciate my Ed Brown 1911's quality, beauty and accuracy over my ugly Glock 19. When I want as many center of mass hits as fast as possible I pick up the Glock. For me it's not even close.
I did enjoy the SA pull on the Sig, it was very smooth. Like Rocketman said though, I found that I suck at the first DA pull and am more consistent under pressure with the pull on the Glock trigger. Looking at either a 23 or a 19. My roommate has the 23 and it's not bad. Would like to stay .40 S&W if possible. Will have to look into that 3.5lb trigger, it sounds sweet.
I like DA/SA on some pistols -- depends upon the grip 'girth' (how 'reachable' is the trigger on that first pull ???), but then I always like a smooth single-action trigger ... as always, whatever you end up using/liking ... it takes practice, practice, and more practice ...
But 3.5 on a GLOCK??? I wouldn't ... it's WAY too light for a DAO pistol. It 'could' promote an AD when you're 'psyched' and pumped up in a 'real world' defensive scenario. It will only get you into trouble if you have to pull that 3.5 trigger in extremis --- "why did you modify your factory trigger into a 'hair trigger' ... weren't you just LOOKING for someone to kill ... ???" -- that's what the local DA will say ...and that's District Attorney, NOT Double Action
. It will also void your warranty ... but after a shooting, that's the least of your potential problems. 3.5 is for the range -- not a 'combat' DA pistol in civie' street. And a 'straight' GLOCK is most decidedly not a 'range' bullseye pistol.
Just sayin' ...
It is sweet. It makes a big difference. You can still shoot in stock service pistol events too.
Check out Lone Wolf. They have all kinds of cool stuff for Glocks. Look under trigger jobs. I just use the stock 3.5 trigger but there are others.
(Jeez I can't believe I'm pushing a Glock in public but it is what it is)
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Default.aspx?PAGE=Main Page
I like DA/SA on some pistols -- depends upon the grip 'girth' (how 'reachable' is the trigger on that first pull ???), but then I always like a smooth single-action trigger ... as always, whatever you end up using/liking ... it takes practice, practice, and more practice ...
But 3.5 on a GLOCK??? I wouldn't ... it's WAY too light for a DAO pistol. It 'could' promote an AD when you're 'psyched' and pumped up in a 'real world' defensive scenario. It will only get you into trouble if you have to pull that 3.5 trigger in extremis --- "why did you modify your factory trigger into a 'hair trigger' ... weren't you just LOOKING for someone to kill ... ???" -- that's what the local DA will say ...and that's District Attorney, NOT Double Action
3.5 is for the range -- not a 'combat' DA pistol in civie' street. And a 'straight' GLOCK is most decidedly not a 'range' bullseye pistol.
Just sayin' ...
Good points all. It may be to light for most people. May be too light for me as well.
But I will say that I've fired several thousand rounds with both a 19 and a 21 using a 3.5 trigger and had no problems at all with AD's. Unlike first shot misses I've had with DA pistols, I don't recall misses due to my Glock firing earlier than I expected. Since I'm responsibe for every round fired, that's a safety issue with me.
I don't know why but the trigger doesn't feel that light. Maybe because of the "safe action"? My Ed Brown lets off just a hair over 4 lbs from the factory and it feels noticably lighter than the 3.5 lb. That said I don't think I'll be using a Glock from a Mex carry anytime soon either, be it 3.5 lb , 5 lb or 8 lb trigger.
Fair enough on the DA making hay over a light trigger pull with the possible exception of a couple of things. There are aftermarket triggers made by others but mine is a factory drop in trigger made by Glock. It's not a modification like a trigger job for a 1911. It doesn't void the warrenty. For what it's worth it's approved for stock service class use by IDPA. Glock also makes an 8lb trigger. Will he gig me for not installing that in the interest of "safety"?
Nobody in their right mind ever wants to argue any of this in court so that should be the bottom line I guess. But I know for damn sure I'm a lot more likely to hurt someone I don't intend to hurt with a DA pistol than I am with a stock 3.5 trigger in my Glock.
I don't have any 3.5lb Glocks, just the stock 5.5lb. The pull on my 26 is noticeably longer than the 21's pull though, and I wonder if that is because they expect people to 'Mex carry' as you say. I have no problem putting rounds on target and tight with the 5.5 so I'll leave it as that, but having shot a 3.5lb G17 it was pretty nice. It wasn't just a stock 3.5 though---the guy had other work done. It was very light and had a very clean break.
Funny story about triggers. I mentioned in another thread that my father was a homicide detective. He got called to an apparent suicide one day and they discovered the guy had two gunshot wounds to the head, not one. Uh oh. They inspected the firearm and it was a S&W 5906. My dad had one that he gave to me for a while. Hair trigger---that thing actually scared me it was so light in SA. They eventually figured out that the guy managed to shoot himself twice from the hair trigger and the recoil. Almost like an accidental bump-fire.
Funny story about triggers. I mentioned in another thread that my father was a homicide detective. He got called to an apparent suicide one day and they discovered the guy had two gunshot wounds to the head, not one. Uh oh. They inspected the firearm and it was a S&W 5906. My dad had one that he gave to me for a while. Hair trigger---that thing actually scared me it was so light in SA. They eventually figured out that the guy managed to shoot himself twice from the hair trigger and the recoil. Almost like an accidental bump-fire.