"Get rid of OCS...Having a degree does absolutely nothing to make you an effective manager."

[BusyBee604]

A degree guarantees a certain level of writing ability.

Generally speaking, this is true; however. I have seen many college grads here on AW, post with poor grammar, punctuation, spelling, capitalization, etc. Mostly due I suspect not to poor education, but to laziness or posting in a hurry. It gives the impression of an uneducated writer, and is a bad habit to get into.

Arriving "in the fleet", you will be expected to be an exceptional writer, as it will be a major part of your DivO/collateral duties. You will be writing letters, memos, instructions, messages, reports, periodic evals for your Sailors (and even roughing up your own FitReps), flight skeds/PODs, awards recommendations, classroom curriculii/lesson guides, etc. All these for chop by your 'front office', and approval by the CO. In summary your promotions, and those of your Sailors will depend in no small part, upon your ability to express yourself in writing.

***BTW I was told recently. that it is considered kosher nowadays, to recommend and rough up award reccomendations FOR YOURSELF! Admittedly, I am an old fart from a previous era, but back in our 'undeclared war' era, that would have been heresy. If true , it seems to me, a definite conflict of interest! Comments pro/con?
BzB

 

[Gatordev]

So am I the only one who noticed the complete flaw in the "angry internet person's" argument?

"Everyone joins as enlisted......then you earn your bars."

"Fuck this STA-21..."

STA-21, a program that does almost exactly what the ranter is advocating (minus the Academy point).

Sounds like a bitter E who wasn't accepted and/or, the stereo-typical E-4 who knows way more about the world than anyone else (after 3 years in the Navy).

 

[Renegade One]

***BTW I was told recently. that it is considered kosher nowadays, to recommend and rough up award reccomendations FOR YOURSELF! Admittedly, I am an old fart from a previous era, but back in our 'undeclared war' era, that would have been heresy. If true , it seems to me, a definite conflict of interest! Comments pro/con?
BzB

BzB: It's older than you are…and guys were doing it when you were still dodging flak. It is neither heresy or conflict of interest if that's one of your collateral duties. One of your very well-respected contemporaries told me so…

 

[PropStop]

I'm a non prior OCS guy. I'm pretty fucking good at my job (and I can read good too ) and I think I've handled many of my leadership challenges well - yes a few I fucked away, but that's how you learn. Sure, maybe being a prior would have helped, or maybe my life as a ski bum following college and prior to joining gave me a unique perspective that enhanced my ability to lead.

As others have said, I'd never bother having this conversation with an E because it doesn't really matter. I doubt we'd be able to fill our officer ranks if you had to go enlisted first - it'd be a turnoff for a lot of folks. "Wait, you want me to chip paint for two years before I can apply to an officer program? Screw that, I'm taking my electrical engineering degree somewhere else and buying a Bentley!" I think this is especially true for someone like me, who joined with the intent of flying. If the only way I could have become an officer was to first enlist for a few years (before or after college), and then MAYBE get a shot at being an officer, and then MAYBE a shot at pilot...well, i'm not sure I'd have wanted to waste my time or talent in such a manner.

I don't want to denigrate prior Es, Mustangs are a critical asset to the Navy and I am deeply grateful for the mentorship they have provided to me through the years. I just don't think that being a prior necessarily makes you a better officer - I've seen a number of priors who were terrible officers. I think there should be an active effort by BUPERS to ensure every OCS class has at least a handful of priors, however, as those in my OCS class were extremely valuable in getting us non priors up to snuff on being in the military.

 

[Tycho_Brohe]

(and I can read good too )

Your alma mater, I presume?

 

[BusyBee604]

BzB: It's older than you are…and guys were doing it when you were still dodging flak. It is neither heresy or conflict of interest if that's one of your collateral duties. One of your very well-respected contemporaries told me so…

You speak with authority, on what some unnamed *very well respected contemporary" told you. I have no idea who my contemporary is... or exactly what you were told. I was there, from the start of Rolling Thunder, until the onset of the 4-year bombing pause in NVN ('65-'68). I can guarantee, it was never done that way in CVW-14, and in the only incident I ever heard of an attempted self-recommendation for a combat award, the individual was hooted out of the ready room. Although I never heard of it, I cannot speak to how combat awards were processed for other CVWs of that period... nor how it was handled after 1971. End of tour/non-combat awards are 'a horse of a different color' !. I have no intent to get in a peeing contest re: this subject, it is like politics & religion, too controversial, I have nothing further to say regardng rewards.
BzB

 

[PropStop]

Your alma mater, I presume?

I'm thankful someone got that.

 

[Renegade One]

You speak with authority, on what some unnamed *very well respected contemporary" told you. ...I have nothing further to say regardng rewards.
BzB

Peace, brother…I have nothing else to say either. Just so long as you understand that I, myself, never really flew in combat. I have neither the interest or the inclination to relate longer stories about two JOs who may or may not have constituted, as a collateral duty, the "original write up crew" for awards in VF-143 in 1967. Go fish.
My very well-respected contemporary went on, during a later "extended cruise", to spend about a year in the Hanoi Hilton. It was on the "budget program"…no room service. I've never had a reason to question his powers of recall.

 

[BusyBee604]

I have neither the interest or the inclination to relate longer stories about two JOs who may or may not have constituted, as a collateral duty, the "original write up crew" for awards in VF-143 in 1967.

My very well-respected contemporary went on, during a later "extended cruise", to spend about a year in the Hanoi Hilton. It was on the "budget program"…no room service. I've never had a reason to question his powers of recall.

I also have no reason, nor will I question anyone's powers of recall, except perhaps my own.

I was also on that '67 cruise on CONNIE of which you speak. The only record I have of the Pukin' Dog thst was lost was the Skipper, and his RIO LTjg Jim Bailey, both POWs, so you must have talked to Jim. Funny coincidence, on the strike on 28 June, when they were hit, I was 2nd section lead for CAG the strike leader. As our flak supression division, VADM (then CDR) Bill Lawrence's section of Phantoms roared by us approachng the target and rolled in, then we rolled in right behind them. Starting my steep 45 deg. bomb run, I heard the dreaded emergency beeper and in my run, saw two chutes descending through the scattered clouds, directly over downtown Nam Dinh, the 2nd largest city in the north. No chance of rescue!

Anyway, I don't know how 143 went about processing awards then... my SA was concentrated elsewhere. I do know the CAG standard to my knowledge was anyone in a flight could recommend another for an unusual 'action', debrief it with the AIO, submit it in writing w/ any available evidence BDA visual/photos, and/or witness statements; to a squadron awards board consisting of 3-4 0-4s, and chaired by XO, who collaborate & smooth writeup in citation form, then forwarded to CO, and if approved, on to CAG. I know of no case where any Pilot recommended himself for any award, nor was I ever asked to write anything about any award involving myself. I have no idea how VF-143 rolled re: combat awards but I know what the CAG's policy was. Sorry for threadjack, I should have learned by now, to avoid awards discussons, doh!

BzB

 

[jcj]

Generally speaking, this is true; however. I have seen many college grads here on AW, post with poor grammar, punctuation, spelling, capitalization, etc. Mostly due I suspect not to poor education, but to laziness or posting in a hurry. It gives the impression of an uneducated writer, and is a bad habit to get into.

I always thought it was from my drunk posts. Wonder what the limit is for PWI (posting while intoxicated). Maybe I need a designated poster. Or a keyboard breathalyzer interlock...

 

[Pags]

You may not need a degree to effectively manage a ship or squadron maintenance program, but that's only scratching the surface of what programs Os manage.

 

[Swanee]

Does the guy who is posting not understand that he is describing how it is? You have to show some leadership/managerial potential before you can get an appointment to a Service Academy or to OCS, ROTC, etc... Then you go there and prove that you have what is takes. I'm not saying the system perfectly weeds out those who don't belong, however we have more 2nd Lts and Ensigns that don't suck as to those who do.

Also, we do send those Es who have the skill and desire to commission to commissioning programs. That's what enlisted commissioning programs exist.

 

[Brett327]

A degree guarantees a certain level of writing ability.

Guarantee might be a bit strong in this case. I've seen plenty of officers who are atrocious writers.

 

[707guy]

Sounds like a bitter E who wasn't accepted and/or, the stereo-typical E-4 who knows way more about the world than anyone else (after 3 years in the Navy).

That's what I was thinking...

 

[Hotdogs]

There is a big difference in the general education levels of enlisted junior Marines than to officers. There are always exceptions, but my interaction with Marines is that most do not have the grammar, analytical, personal interaction, and critical thinking skills needed to preform at the company grade level. It's no surprise that you refine most of those during your undergrad years. It's not the silver bullet of officership, but it's a good filter. I literally had a Marine sign his leave paperwork the other day on SDO and his signature looked like it came off of third grader spelling sheet - like big letters with a bright crayon - purple dinosaur style.