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FY18 O-5 results

EODDave

The pastures are greener!
pilot
Super Moderator
Flash,

I didn't ask that particular question. He just kept saying they couldn't find a reason for why some #2's picked it up over others. They seemed willing to answer the questions I asked and didn't seem like they were trying to hide anything. I got the vibe that they are thinking WTF, just like the rest of us.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Remember, PERS 43 does not run the statutory boards. They have no additional or special insight into process or outcomes. That explains why they don't have good answers, as they have to reverse engineer the data.
 

IKE

Nerd Whirler
pilot
When the detailers do this post-board fact-finding, do they look at trait averages and language in the writeup block of the non-selects?

I've not been to a statutory board, but I've been AR on two admin boards, and saw both these two items play strongly:
1) Individual vs. RS CUM trait average
2) Number of FITREPs containing promotion or screen recommendations in the writeup (e.g., "SELECT EARLY FOR CDR" or "SCREEN FOR MAJOR CMD")

Also, the detailers can't say when in the string of records any given one was briefed. If one of those #2 EP DHs was briefed immediately after a rockstar, I could see that giving them enough non-100% votes to fall just below the arbitrary line of selection on the scatterplot.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Remember, PERS 43 does not run the statutory boards. They have no additional or special insight into process or outcomes. That explains why they don't have good answers, as they have to reverse engineer the data.
Unfortunately, the detailers don't have time to really crunch numbers. A lot of the analysis is weak and confusing. Pers would do better to give the data to an OR masters candidate at NPS to crunch numbers as their thesis.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Unfortunately, the detailers don't have time to really crunch numbers. A lot of the analysis is weak and confusing. Pers would do better to give the data to an OR masters candidate at NPS to crunch numbers as their thesis.
Or fund some data analysts. Or use some that already exist so where in the Navy. OCM/Detailers should be able to provide their communities with actionable analysis. That doesn't mean they need to do the spreadsheets themselves but they should find folks to do the hard math for them.
 

Beans

*1. Loins... GIRD
pilot
Or fund some data analysts. Or use some that already exist so where in the Navy. OCM/Detailers should be able to provide their communities with actionable analysis. That doesn't mean they need to do the spreadsheets themselves but they should find folks to do the hard math for them.
Or publish the data openly within the Navy with randomized identifiers (rather than DoD ID numbers or SSNs) and see what the community comes up with.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Or publish the data openly within the Navy with randomized identifiers (rather than DoD ID numbers or SSNs) and see what the community comes up with.
To get real data you need the analysis to be done by actual professionals. But the results should be presents with reproducible methodology so that there is transparency to the data.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
There could be other factors that the boards look at once the rock stars are picked. (Sustained superior performance and leadership are always at the top). If you have a bunch of rankings close together, then what else is left to make a determination? The pages below list such items as the letter to the board an officer should submit as well as what items the board may consider important (i.e., joint tours, regional expertise, JPME, master's degree, etc)

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/activedutyofficer/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/activedutyofficer/Documents/FY-18 Competency Skills for Web Publishing.pdf

Some wise words from an old country music song...

If you're gonna play the game boys, you gotta learn to play it right....

 

TimeBomb

Noise, vibration and harshness
PERS-8, who sponsors statutory boards, is very limited in what they can provide in the way of a post mortem due to the requirements for secrecy in board proceedings. There is no legitimate way for anyone who was in the board spaces during the selection process to report on exactly what were "make or break" features of a given record.

In my experience, there are obvious show stoppers in some records that get everyone's thumbs down, and some records that would fly through any selection board. That leaves the majority of records that leave the board members digging for subtle differences to break out a particular officer. The particular board member who briefs a record makes a huge difference in how that record gets voted. My suspicion is that a lot of the observed variability in the board results is more highly correlated to what's not on the FITREP rather than what is. And there is no way to get to that data under the current rules of statutory boards.

Remember also, that every selectee goes through a detailed vetting process before the board results are released. PERS-8 scrubs the records of every potential selectee looking for anything that might suggest that individual doesn't meet the "best and most fully qualified" standard. For the purposes of discussion, we'll assume that none of the non-selects had any bad paper anywhere in their non-FITREP lives that could hurt them. Rarely, selectees can get taken off the list at that point, but not many people fall into that category who aren't on somebody's radar before the board. It does happen though.

Remember, PERS-4 cannot be present in the board spaces for statutory boards. Once the board results are out, PERS-4's only recourse is to try and read the tea leaves of groups of records looking for obvious patterns or anomalies, or looking at an individual record of either a select or non-select to see if there is anything there that stands out as toxic. Failing that, you are left with the response quoted above as "We don't have a clue why he didn't select". As mentioned, detailers have neither the time nor the expertise to do that sort of analysis on anything other than a very superficial level on data that may or may not be relevant.

If there were any big Navy interest in a more detailed parsing the results of boards, there are any number of avenues that could be pursued. The fact that this hasn't been done tells me that there really isn't the desire on the part of senior officers to scratch that itch.
R/
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
Ok, then here is the million dollar question. If the detailers "don't know" what the board values or is looking for, then how the hell can they come up with "game plans" for guys careers?
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner! This is why that other thread about the FITREP system changing is simultaneously very important and not worth considering at all.
 

LFCFan

*Insert nerd wings here*
Again, looking at the Bubba list for VFA, there were 103 eligible FY18 CDR with about 20% of those not picking up O-5. Of those 1 is listed as getting out. I know of 4 or 5 really good dudes with jacked up timing due to sequestration or medical issues, and a few might not have had their high-water O-4 FITREP because they went off and did other things, like getting a Masters before flight school.

I guess we will have to wait and see next year how those guys are treated. I really do hope we fix this broken ass system were guys are FOSed based on issues that are beyond their control or being screwed over because you went off to MIT to get a Masters.

All this reminds me of the Army O-2 who nearly didn't make O-3 (that's a thing in the Army) because being a Rhodes Scholar screwed with his timing:
https://warontherocks.com/2015/12/first-steps-towards-the-force-of-the-future/

*Returns to swim lane*
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
All this reminds me of the Army O-2 who nearly didn't make O-3 (that's a thing in the Army) because being a Rhodes Scholar screwed with his timing:
https://warontherocks.com/2015/12/first-steps-towards-the-force-of-the-future/

*Returns to swim lane*
But we're putting butts in seats, so it's all ok . . .

giphy.gif
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Ok, then here is the million dollar question. If the detailers "don't know" what the board values or is looking for, then how the hell can they come up with "game plans" for guys careers?

This is a good spot to remind everyone about the Board Convening Letter on the Navy Personnel Command website. After the traditional "Fully and Best Qualified" mantra, the Board Convening Letter details what additional skills the Navy considers important. Also, make sure your records are up to date and reflect all of the skills you have earned. (For example, a Master's Degree by definition rates a subspecialty code, AQD's and NOBC's are also important - especially for reservists.) Finally, did you send a letter to the board?

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/Pages/default.aspx

For example, here is the link for the FY18 active duty O-5 board.
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/boards/activedutyofficer/05line/Pages/FY-18.aspx
 
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