FY-15 ADHSB

[PhrogLoop]

Ever heard the joke about CSFWP Det Wall Street?...There is a certain something that comes with that background that makes these guys very attractive to folks who often fancy themselves as swashbuckling, hard-nosed, aggressive risk takers. Whether it's fair or entirely accurate doesn't matter. These guys have options, lots and lots of options beyond the airlines - and I believe more so than 1310s from other communities.

Shit just got real. And I'm in. I actually agree with RLSO with a few qualifiers. When I look at my Academy classmates at Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Bank, and Morgan Stanley, they're pretty much all either VF/VFA types or SEALs. Nothing wrong with that. But I think that any Veteran can get just about the same "cred" walking into an IB interview if they are willing to sell themselves and communicate how their Military experience directly translates into the intestinal fortitude needed to close a million dollar trade before lunch. I think RLSO's statement points to something a little deeper that we can take into another thread if necessary and it's the willingness to self-promote. Is that personality type more prevalent in VFA than HSC? Not sure. But it is a good quality to have if you want to take advantage of certain opportunities out of uniform.

 

[flynsail]

Ever heard the joke about CSFWP Det Wall Street? It's a joke, with some truth behind it. I'm going to piss off a whole swath of folks with this comment, but I believe there is a lot of truth behind it:

Put "TOPGUN graduate" on a resume. Put "carrier aviator" on a resume. Put the words "fighter" and "pilot" on a resume. There is a certain something that comes with that background that makes these guys very attractive to folks who often fancy themselves as swashbuckling, hard-nosed, aggressive risk takers. Whether it's fair or entirely accurate doesn't matter. These guys have options, lots and lots of options beyond the airlines - and I believe more so than 1310s from other communities.

The comment doesn't bother me at all, and there is some truth to it. If you are saying companies like the idea of hiring FAGs (no offense) more than other Naval Aviators, then it is what it is. The fact is that many 1310s, of all backgrounds, are still waiting for the "you've been hired" call from XX airline. Moreover, several 1310 FAGs (again, no offense) have either received the TBNT email from XX airline or not been called for an interview. For every F/A-18 guy I know hired by a major airline, I know of another V"X" pilot hired. For actual proof, just peruse the forums of Airline Pilot Central. That website has many "fighter" guys waiting to be interviewed or hired.

Kind of funny that VFA has "Det Wall Street". Seems like OpTempo is a big reason for retention in VFA, but Wall Street is not even close to a 9-5 job! I've never heard of an easy life working on Wall Street. Airlines also spend several days away from home, but you do also have more days off at home. Not a good comparison, but there has to be several contributing factors for the VAQ/VFA pilot retention. If not, why opt for jobs that still have high demands away from home.

Serious question though, when exactly did the VFA/VAQ pilot retention issue get worse? Was it when the deployment lengths increased? More workups while home?

Would like to echo the earlier sentiment from Brett, and this had been an interesting discussion.

 

[Recovering LSO]

Seems like OpTempo is a big reason for retention in VFA, but Wall Street is not even close to a 9-5 job! I've never heard of an easy life working on Wall Street.

$ A guy can spend a lot of time away from home for O-3/O-4 pay, or he can spend a lot of time away from home for twice that.

 

[ben4prez]

Seems like OpTempo is a big reason for retention in VFA, but Wall Street is not even close to a 9-5 job! I've never heard of an easy life working on Wall Street. Airlines also spend several days away from home, but you do also have more days off at home

For me, if I have to spend 180 days ormore away from home in a given year, its easier to do so in 3-4 day chunks than all at once (consulting, airlines, etc). As much fun as I had on deployment, it was also incredibly challenging because you are literally removed from your normal world for a significant chunk of time. Even with frequent travel, you're touching home base consistently, which is a significant psychological differentiator. Even in the midst of incredibly long work weeks.

 

[Brett327]

$ A guy can spend a lot of time away from home for O-3/O-4 pay, or he can spend a lot of time away from home for twice that.

Which, if true, brings us back to the bonus question. I don't pretend to know whether the bosuses are effective or where the threshold lies for the average person. In all likelyhood, and to the extent that they have the right authorities, the bonus rheostat is probably the first thing NPC is going to reach for to alter the retention trajectory.

 

[lowflier03]

Which, if true, brings us back to the bonus question. I don't pretend to know whether the bosuses are effective or where the threshold lies for the average person. In all likelyhood, and to the extent that they have the right authorities, the bonus rheostat is probably the first thing NPC is going to reach for to alter the retention trajectory.

I would say that the type of time away from home is significant, as are other factors, but it is just easier to say " If I'm gonna get fucked in the ass, I might as well get paid well for it." We all know that traditional Navy surveys intentionally don't ask the right questions and as such they won't get the real answers.

Short stints on the road is a hell of a lot different than 10 months straight. Especially when that 10 months is preceded by 10+ months away on work ups, in the shitty environment of communal living on the boat. Combine that with the arbitrary nature of the promotion/yg/fitrep system. Add in shitty leaders who no longer go to bat for their people and constant fear of getting your career squashed by the PC police. Oh and flight time keeps getting cut to pay for acquisitions that we all know are bullshit and broken.
Hmmm. I really wonder why people give up on the system and just say that the pay is better on the outside. I can only type that list in to so many open response blocks on a survey before I decide that it's not worth my time having my opinion ignored by decision makers who obviously don't care.

 

[robav8r]

There was a Senior Chief in a recent town hall with CNP who said that a 9 month deployment under O-FRP was too much to ask. Too much to ask in light of what we sacrificed in blood and treasure these past 12 years, especially considering recent events unfolding in Iraq. Telling folks that O-FRP will bring "stability" to deployment cycles but still requiring them to deploy for as long, or longer AFTER we have left the region is not resonating.

 

[smoke_screen]

As long as everyone is throwing stuff against the wall here, a few other random thoughts:

1) The wave getting out now are both victim of commissioning directly into a decade long war (optempo) and the corporate America on a frenzied talent search... the corporate economy was never stronger and there are 6-figure jobs to be had for most - and this gets passed back to the wardroom fast. Consultant X, Bank Y, Sales Z... all paying 6 figures to 32 year old aviators and everyone knows it.

2) Snodgrass is right that Millennials, while self-consumed pricks, are practical. It's not a good time to be selfish and be a naval aviator - see all the reasons on the preceding 7 pages. There isn't a lot to pitch a savvy Millennial because they are probably obsessed with #1.

3) The wealth inequality thing has legs in the mainstream because that is what our entire broader generation has experienced firsthand. You have to get while the getting is good. If there are "haves" and "have nots", most people 33-35 and very ambitious don't want to roll the dice on making O-6 and being really well off in retirement.

4) Women are making more money all the time and that gap is closing. So a spouse's potential income matters more now.

5) Like with the Facebook Effect on spousal relationships/happiness (where people broadcast the flowers they got but fail to mention the drunken stupor return after straight to voice mail for 6 hours), social media is making the grass greener on the outside. This is a personal observation. Lots of peers say "boy looks like things are going pretty well for you..." whereas you don't get that in the military. I think it may be actually be a small factor but I could be talking to the wrong people.

 

[nittany03]

2) Snodgrass is right that Millennials, while self-consumed pricks, are practical. It's not a good time to be selfish and be a naval aviator - see all the reasons on the preceding 7 pages. There isn't a lot to pitch a savvy Millennial because they are probably obsessed with #1.

Because it's cool to tar millions of people with a character flaw based on when they were born. Do tell how you're worthless to Naval Air if you're born after 1982; I'm sure the vast majority of fleet JOs are waiting with bated breath for this penetrating analysis. Protip: replace "Millennials" with "blacks," "women," or "gays," and see how your argument sounds.

 

[hscs]

3) The wealth inequality thing has legs in the mainstream because that is what our entire broader generation has experienced firsthand. You have to get while the getting is good. If there are "haves" and "have nots", most people 33-35 and very ambitious don't want to roll the dice on making O-6 and being really well off in retirement.

Be careful - the getting was good in 1999 and the property flipping extravaganza pre-2007. Not so good after the fact. Many ambitious persons risked a lot and lost a lot.

I stuck around during the dot com / I want to be a realtor brain drain - didn't think it was right to leave when things were bad in 2005-6. Yes - there was a war to help that decision, but that was also in the - go see the CO to get your year long IA orders that start tomorrow.

And for the general discussion - my brother in law works in the financial sector: he is gone more than me when I on sea duty and probably jealous of the amount of sleep a SWO gets. Yeah, he makes a bunch more $ than me - but I don't know if he even has the time to enjoy it.

 

[UInavy]

Words.

Seriously? I'm all about the anti-PC movement, but would you actually speak that out loud in front of a Sailor? It's not funny. Saying 'no offense' gives you no more license than 'with all due respect.' If you want to broadcast the wings under your user name, don't use FAG. No one does it, it's not 'catchy' and you bring discredit to yourself, your community and your service. This is a great thread. It's probably one of the best on this website in years. Don't ruin it with your sophomoric attempts at uneducated humor.

 

[UInavy]

I know the FITREP issue is only one dimension of this problem solving effort, but it would be helpful (in my mind) to more precisely define what we're trying to fix. Why is the retention problem so much more pronounced in the VFA 1310 world? Are they really all going to the airlines (as many have asserted)? Is there any data on that? I'll be most interested to see the detailed results of the recent Retention Survey this fall. Seems like the "timing" factor is a problem for a lot of people, but timing can mean lots of different things. Are people griping about a scenario where two rock stars show up at once, yet only one can have a reasonable chance of getting a ticket punched? Legit gripe, IMO, which ought to be addressed differently in the FITREP system. On the other hand, I've heard a lot of people complain about/not really understand why a guy who just shows up to a command, rock star though he may be, probably isn't going to get an EP. I think there are a number of good reasons why we have people go through a progression like that, but there are lots of ways that could be changed too. At any rate, we ought to really understand what we're trying to changeand what behavior we're intending to modify.

For the record, this is one of the best threads in recent memory... and we're not even at each other's throats.

Brett,

I think the VFA 1310 world offers more options without completely 'jumping ship.' It can be more of a granulated decision than an in/out, black and white call. A transition to VFA, VFC, VT or VR FTS or SELRES is available. This offers an opportunity to keep doing what you like without a complete exit. Though this may partially explain the VFA/VAQ 1310 vs 1320 numbers, it'd be interesting to compare the reserve opportunities available versus community retention rates. If that comparison could be controlled for average deployment time, average work day and general bad-dealness, that'd be awesome.

 

[NUFO06]

Are squadrons just going to go without the required level of DHs? If I understand this right, big Navy is promoting to O-4 at a rate where DH selection is almost an automatic, but that doesn't account for all those getting selected that are leaving. If there is not enough O-4s to fill DH billets and Naval Aviation fills well over half their non aviation O-4 billets with 1310/1320s then what is big Navy going to do with those unfilled billets?

I don't understand because Admiral Moran spoke about all this last year after the board results. So why did big Navy again, knowing the current numbers problem fail to promote enough O-4s to fill the billets?

 

[SynixMan]

Are squadrons just going to go without the required level of DHs? If I understand this right, big Navy is promoting to O-4 at a rate where DH selection is almost an automatic, but that doesn't account for all those getting selected that are leaving. If there is not enough O-4s to fill DH billets and Naval Aviation fills well over half their non aviation O-4 billets with 1310/1320s then what is big Navy going to do with those unfilled billets?

I don't understand because Admiral Moran spoke about all this last year after the board results. So why did big Navy again, knowing the current numbers problem fail to promote enough O-4s to fill the billets?

http://new.livestream.com/wab/nha/videos/51032110

Here's a link to the PERS 43 brief from NHA in May. The Q&A is at the end is helo centric, but the first part of the brief will maybe help explain what PERS 43 is seeing as far as O-4 accessions in the previous cycles.

break break

I will say it's interesting to see different community's takes on continuing on in the Navy vice getting out. Most Fleet LTs could walk into a good MBA program on the GI Bill and then into a good job without too much fuss, so long as their finances weren't a wreck. Also consider that most Fleet LTs aren't carrying a boat anchor worth of student loan debt, unlike a statistically significant portion of their civilian counterparts (and myself included). That financial freedom to be a "free agent", as it were, is hugely empowering.

Everyone has to make their own calculus. My community (HSC) seems heavy on JOs (thanks helo master plan) and light on work (thanks sequester/busted acquisitions/etc) and the competition to get good paper on your first tour is increasing.

 

[flynsail]

Seriously? I'm all about the anti-PC movement, but would you actually speak that out loud in front of a Sailor? It's not funny. Saying 'no offense' gives you no more license than 'with all due respect.' If you want to broadcast the wings under your user name, don't use FAG. No one does it, it's not 'catchy' and you bring discredit to yourself, your community and your service. This is a great thread. It's probably one of the best on this website in years. Don't ruin it with your sophomoric attempts at uneducated humor.

In no way was I trying to offend anyone by using that acronym. It was not a sophomoric attempt at humor, which is why I was saying "no offense" each time I used it. My whole post was being serious, and I was not trying to be funny. Thanks for bringing it to my attention that I used a poor choice of words.

I apologize for offending anyone from the TACAIR communities. This is a great thread and hope it stays that way.