Fun with Anthro

[WinterMute]

After getting to API after completing a process that started back in 08', with a flight physical approved by NAMI from a flight surgeon (Not at Pensacola) about 2 years ago, I find that I am now Anthro'd out of 2 pipelines in accordance with OPNAVINST 3710.37A: http://doni.daps.dla.mil/Directives/03000%20Naval%20Operations%20and%20Readiness/03-700%20Flight%20and%20Air%20Space%20Support%20Services/3710.37A.pdf

This is interesting as I don't think I grew any between fall 09' and now. When I went to look up the reference of OPNAVINST 3710.37A (NAVAIRINST 3710.9 )for specific requirements for things like sitting height, I find: "Since NAVAIRINST 3710.9D is LimDis, and the online evaluation software NACES and NAACA) are operational at this time, email or fax anthro data (OPNAV 3710/37A form) to NASC Anthro."

Now why would anything about height restrictions on some 70's era aircraft be LimDis?
(I suppose the MV-22 and F-35 might be in the file these days, still, who cares about how tall the pilot has to be?) Any recommendations on how I could through official channels request a LimDis document such as this?

Other options are limited (if you will excuse the pun), as the order is very clear that cockpit "fits" and the like are no longer authorized.

 

[MIDNJAC]

NOMI (or is it NAMI...whatever) keeps a pretty tight lid on what the anthro requirements actually are for various aircraft. Not sure why, but my guess is so that folks don't find ways to cheat the system. The dimensions of "70's era aircraft" cockpits aren't secret, but they have no good reason to publish for wide viewing, the anthro limitations on our aircraft. Nobody is BS'ing you, some folks just don't "fit". The big restriction for jets/tacair comes with the T-45, as it is a very small cockpit. The baby hornet also has a pretty comparably small cockpit, but even if it is bigger, a student still needs to safely get through 150-ish hours in the cramped cockpit of a T-45 before they ever get there. I'm guessing the other pipeline you are restricted from is E2/C2, and those guys also train through phase 1/intermediate jets in the T-45.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

who cares about how tall the pilot has to be?

Are you being serious with this? They didn't just make numbers up. That said, you can still game the system a little bit. I was told that my sitting height anthro'd me out of jets before I got to TBS. I just never said anything about it, and must have been right on the edge because when I got to Pensacola I went through the measurement process again and magically developed worse posture and I've been fine in T-45's and in Harriers as well.

 

[MasterBates]

The 45 is small. I probably would have lost a kneecap or foot if I ejected. I had to get creative with cockpit management to make shit work. Ever see a guy land a jet only using the tips of 3 fingers? That's how I flew the 45.

Why the Navy makes the trainer the most restrictive aircraft, I don't know. I fit in all current fleet jets/carrier props, including some that recently went away that were available when I was in flight school the first time (S-3, F-14).

Strangely, I fit better in a TA-4J than a T-45.

And the 45C has more room than the 45A, but the anthros are the same.

NOMI partially has their head up their ass on this one, but they are the gatekeepers right or wrong.

 

[FlyBoyd]

who cares about how tall the pilot has to be?

Are you being serious with this? They didn't just make numbers up.

No Tree...he is asking why the numbers are seemingly a secret/LIMDIS as in "Who cares who knows how tall the pilot has to be?"

To the OP - it really doesn't matter if you know the numbers. They will measure how they are going to measure not how you think they should. In the end, the outcome will be the same.

 

[Uncle Fester]

If you're on the edge, you can request a re-measurement. The anthro NAMI* people do it for a living and understand your dimensions change based on time since waking up, etc.

If you're not on the edge, there's not much point. Anthro is what it is, right or wrong.

Why are the measurements not publshed? Because NAMI views anthro as a safety-of-flight thing and they don't want people trying to game it. Again, right or wrong, Ensign Timmy is not going to get them to change their mind.

*NAMI (Naval Aerospace Medical Institute) is a subordinate command to NOMI (Navy Operational Medicine Institue).

 

[MasterBates]

Yeah.. And NOMI changed how they measure, which changed the measurements, but did not change the allowable measurements.

Me and CNATRA's Physiologist went roundy-round with them over this for 4 months.

NOMI is like the ATF. The height up the chain you have to go to get them to change their mind is damn near the top, anyone that is a peer or lower is summarily ignored. Even if they have more real world experience, and has actually seen the man-machine interface in question.

 

[Crazy8]

And the 45C has more room than the 45A, but the anthros are the same.

Is there really more room in the Charlie? I've flown both from both cockpits, but I'm the wrong one to judge because every time I strap in I think the plane got smaller. The cockpit is tiny, and most people sit so high in the back seat that it looks like their heads are above the canopy breaker. The rudder pedals won't go nearly far enough forward, so I imagine I'd either smoke my knees on the map lights or break a femur from leg slap if I ever had to eject. That said, I have seen some gigantic human beings wedge themselves into the same cockpit. One in particular must be at least 6'5" and 280#.

As for gaming the anthro numbers, the only times I actually saw the numbers was in my recruiter's office and when they measured me at OCS. Maybe you can find them, or maybe the Anthro people will at least tell you which dimension is the problem.

 

[MasterBates]

45C instrument panel is about 2" further forward, and the radio locations were easier for me to work. It also has "cutouts" where the legs go.

Basically, in the 45A, I could not put the pedals full forward, because my shins would hit the panel before I got full throw.

45C I could sit normal and be comfortable.

So of course, I took the 45A to the boat.

 

[MasterBates]

T-45A

T-45C

Note the "Cutouts"

 

[WinterMute]

Hmm, I didn't need to find that document, NOMI was nice enough to supply the numbers. Unless I can magically find a way to lose .4 of an inch of my siting height, I can enjoy the beginning of a promising new career as an AMO.

Despite all the advice and supporting evidence I have gotten so far telling me to roll over on this one, I have yet to reach the "Acceptance" stage of loss, and will continue looking for other options. The odds are stacked at least several thousand to one against any sucess at this, but hey, that does not stop people from buying lottery tickets.

 

[MasterBates]

Lose all the weight/muscle off your ass. Become anorexic. Don't run or do squats.

 

[WinterMute]

Lose all the weight/muscle off your ass. Become anorexic. Don't run or do squats.

Amusing, but actually, running compresses the disks in your vertebrae. During a marathon, people lose 2-3 CM in height, which would be about double what I needed to pass. In fact, people lose about 1 CM over the course of a normal day, which again, would be about what I needed to pass. So, wake up extra early and stand around if you are worried about being too tall....

 

[MasterBates]

Standing jumps off a picnic table prior to measuring.

Most people if not skinny, can lose 1/2-3/4 off their Sitting Height and BKL by losing their ass.

 

[Swanee]

45C instrument panel is about 2" further forward, and the radio locations were easier for me to work. It also has "cutouts" where the legs go.

Basically, in the 45A, I could not put the pedals full forward, because my shins would hit the panel before I got full throw.

45C I could sit normal and be comfortable.

So of course, I took the 45A to the boat.

Did studs fly A and C models interchangeably?