The closest thing we ever had (which isn't really close at all) in Australia was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrov_Affair
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Former Marine Aviator Arrested on Suspicion of Providing Aid to China
- Thread starter snake020
- Start date
His extradition was approved by an Australian district judge, almost certainly will be appealed. Apparently his case has apparently become some sort of a cause célèbre and a few of his supporters disrupted the proceedings.
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I know nothing of the case beyond the link you posted; however, the fact that he he made a heart shape with his hands leads me to believe he's guilty.
Nobody who's innocent, in their 50's, does this shit.😅
In today's clown world, it hardly matters anyway- much like Julian Assange (asshat) it'll be tied up in the courts until the guy dies of old age.
I would be surprised folks in Australia are taking his side, considering he allegedly helped China, but then that's par for the course in today's hate-your-own-country clown world.
From what I have seen and heard, the only folks in Australia taking his side are the lunatic fringe.In today's clown world, it hardly matters anyway- much like Julian Assange (asshat) it'll be tied up in the courts until the guy dies of old age.
I would be surprised folks in Australia are taking his side, considering he allegedly helped China, but then that's par for the course in today's hate-your-own-country clown world.
Which, thanks to mandatory voting, doesn't get much say in elections.
Hmm, so he renounced his American citizenship? To teach Chinese pilots in SA how to turn on their water switches at the abeam?
He's cooked.
Looking around the interwebs it appears the Chinese are using South Africa as a training incubator to gather western military tactics and techniques and are recruiting from all NATO nations. The UK claims some of the guys they know went over as part of a counter-intelligence program gathering info on the Chinese. A French naval aviator said he was offered substantial cash to teach carrier ops but his “patriotisme” stopped him. Still, you can all sleep soundly at night knowing that I will never give away the secrets of Griz-O-Copter operations.
I’m not excusing his behavior, but there are a few gray areas or donut holes that I think contributed to or exacerbated this case:
1. 12 years in Marine aviation is long enough to learn/teach advanced tactics, but not long enough to earn a pension, which means there are fewer strings attached for the USG to later pull, and also, less financial security for the member after separation. The financial prospects of a dude with 6 kids who has a 20-yr Lt Col retirement starkly differ from those of a 12-yr Major. Not so much a gray area as it is a donut hole in compensation if you separate at 12-19 years of service without a pension. I imagine financial security played a role when China started waving money at him.
2. There is an unfortunate duality in the US/West where large corporations frequently cater to and profit from China, and this is seen as perfectly fine to take China’s money. Disney filmed the live action Mulan in Xinjiang where the Uighur people live (and face terrible oppression). Apple sells $1k phones featuring the latest, smallest microelectronics that are made in China - then Apple balks at helping the FBI unlock a recovered phone in a terrorist criminal case. Several NBA and Hollywood stars have picked China over Taiwan in public rhetoric. This is all a socially acceptable manner of getting rich, even if China is labeled an adversary. There isn’t the same outrage level as with US companies closing stores/restaurants in Russia immediately after Ukraine. It lulls people like Duggan into self-justifying their Chinese financial ties.
3. As the 60 Minutes piece mentions, China’s civilian-military fusion is an intentional gray area and blurred line. Lots of countries do this, including the US. And not just the Chinese student pilots, but you’ve got Duggan teaching at a private sector school while leaning on and promoting his “wings of gold” military experience. Not sure if Duggan actually wore his naval aviator wings on his civilian flight suit, but if he did, then he knew he’s blurring that military-civilian line for monetary gain. Not illegal. But could have contributed to both China’s interest in Duggan and Duggan’s willingness to talk (too) freely about naval aviation topics.
4. Probably not as gray an area as Duggan’s defense attorney wants everyone to believe, but the TTPs in aviation that are classified vs. unclassified. What is a military TTP vs. “adventure aviation” TTP. What is a TTP vs. a “sea story from my time as a Harrier pilot.” Export restrictions on “defense services” are even less clear, e.g. several former 3-letter agency officials have made money consulting on security apparatus topics for Gulf states.
5. I imagine the US has more evidence on Duggan than has been disclosed, but a gray area may be whether and how much the US will reveal what it knows and how it knows. The US may have a smoking gun on Duggan, but may be reluctant to disclose it, which could be a gray area in terms of what charges are brought and how they’re prosecuted. I’m guessing that if Duggan gets extradicted both sides will prefer a plea deal that is public enough to prevent “future Duggans” while not so public as to reveal information the US doesn’t want out there (be it the TTPs that the US alleges Duggan disclosed, or the manner in which the US found out Duggan had crossed lines helping China).
1. 12 years in Marine aviation is long enough to learn/teach advanced tactics, but not long enough to earn a pension, which means there are fewer strings attached for the USG to later pull, and also, less financial security for the member after separation. The financial prospects of a dude with 6 kids who has a 20-yr Lt Col retirement starkly differ from those of a 12-yr Major. Not so much a gray area as it is a donut hole in compensation if you separate at 12-19 years of service without a pension. I imagine financial security played a role when China started waving money at him.
2. There is an unfortunate duality in the US/West where large corporations frequently cater to and profit from China, and this is seen as perfectly fine to take China’s money. Disney filmed the live action Mulan in Xinjiang where the Uighur people live (and face terrible oppression). Apple sells $1k phones featuring the latest, smallest microelectronics that are made in China - then Apple balks at helping the FBI unlock a recovered phone in a terrorist criminal case. Several NBA and Hollywood stars have picked China over Taiwan in public rhetoric. This is all a socially acceptable manner of getting rich, even if China is labeled an adversary. There isn’t the same outrage level as with US companies closing stores/restaurants in Russia immediately after Ukraine. It lulls people like Duggan into self-justifying their Chinese financial ties.
3. As the 60 Minutes piece mentions, China’s civilian-military fusion is an intentional gray area and blurred line. Lots of countries do this, including the US. And not just the Chinese student pilots, but you’ve got Duggan teaching at a private sector school while leaning on and promoting his “wings of gold” military experience. Not sure if Duggan actually wore his naval aviator wings on his civilian flight suit, but if he did, then he knew he’s blurring that military-civilian line for monetary gain. Not illegal. But could have contributed to both China’s interest in Duggan and Duggan’s willingness to talk (too) freely about naval aviation topics.
4. Probably not as gray an area as Duggan’s defense attorney wants everyone to believe, but the TTPs in aviation that are classified vs. unclassified. What is a military TTP vs. “adventure aviation” TTP. What is a TTP vs. a “sea story from my time as a Harrier pilot.” Export restrictions on “defense services” are even less clear, e.g. several former 3-letter agency officials have made money consulting on security apparatus topics for Gulf states.
5. I imagine the US has more evidence on Duggan than has been disclosed, but a gray area may be whether and how much the US will reveal what it knows and how it knows. The US may have a smoking gun on Duggan, but may be reluctant to disclose it, which could be a gray area in terms of what charges are brought and how they’re prosecuted. I’m guessing that if Duggan gets extradicted both sides will prefer a plea deal that is public enough to prevent “future Duggans” while not so public as to reveal information the US doesn’t want out there (be it the TTPs that the US alleges Duggan disclosed, or the manner in which the US found out Duggan had crossed lines helping China).
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Overall, I think you make some valid points, but for the above, I'd offer that for the job he was doing, and if he did it "by the book," it's actually pretty easy to figure out what's restricted. The trick is you have to ask. The answer he would have received would have been pretty much none of it. That's extreme and probably not warranted, but the FDOs can help make the legal call, even if they're overly conservative.
There's stuff I don't specifically mention here on AW, not because it isn't open-source and something anyone who's seen a picture of a Romeo on the internet doesn't know about (except maybe Chuck), but I'm still currently under NDAs that specifically say to not address them. Are portions of the NDAs dumb? Yes, but why bother disclosing it when I'm still an employ of an entity that operates under those NDAs.
And for our hero of the story, he's still under some sort of NDA when he separated (even if there aren't a lot of legal teeth behind it, like you mentioned).
It appears they do. While in China Duggan shared an address (on a U.S. intelligence watch list) with a Chinese gent named Sun Bin. Bin’s association with the South African school isn’t all that bad….but…Bin was arrested and is currently serving time in the U.S. for stealing secrets related to U.S. military aircraft design. That same year Duggan renounced his US citizenship at the U.S. Embassy in Beijing…backdating it to 2012.
I think he’s in what the Aussies might call, a bit of bother.
There appear to be some pretty clear cut examples of where this moron likely broke the law from publicly available info.
Helping a 'test pilot school' get an export license for a former US military aircraft, then using it for military training without authorization is a clear violation of ITAR. The State Department even told him that he needed a license to export defense services to China in 2008, which he never got. To be frank, there is no plausible explanation that teaching carrier landings can be passed off as a 'sea story' or as some sort of civil aviation skill.
The renunciation of his US citizenship in 2016 (that he made retroactive to 2012?), appears to be an attempt to avoid prosecution for breaking US law. Fortunately for us, US law doesn't work like that.
From what I have read of the indictment it appears that the US has enough publicly available information to nail him already.