fighters

[kevin]

i recently saw a special on tv regarding modern russian fighters. ive also read quite a bit regarding specifically the mig29 and su33/37. from all the info ive seen, it seems to me like these fighters would pretty much eat any u.s. fighter for breakfast. one f18 driver i read about flew mig29's for a while and had nothing but praise for it. granted russia is more concerned about having the best military technology possible than the fact that the general populace is starving to death, but i still dont get this. always in the past when somebody put out something superior we came out with something better. ie when people started realizing the jap zero was cleaning up, the p38 and p51 were developed. then the f86 cleaned up the mig17 in korea. the f22 was developed because engineers realized that the new migs and su's were superior to the f15, but it's saving grace is thrust vectoring and stealth, and it still doesnt have the maneuverability of the ruskies. i do realize things have changed some and avionics and stealth are more important obviously than they used to be, but i just dont get how russia jumped ahead when we seemingly have more resources to work with. im not trying to stir up a fire fight here, im just trying to see what people think about this topic (and im bored right now). on the same subject, if anyone lives near or can get to dayton, oh the woodstock of airshows is going to be there july17-20. both demontration teams will be there (rivalry?) as well as a whole hell of a lot of sweet stuff. having gone every year i can tell you it's definitely worth it.

 

[D_mac05]

Kevin,

Me and a buddy (jaerose on this site) will be there!!! On Thursday though, we have reserved seats. What day will you be there?

 

[Fly Navy]

Not an expert, but if I remember right, the MiG-29 and the F-15 were considered equals, at least in the original configurations. Remember how well trained our pilots are though...and add to the fact that Russian technology isn't usually top notch, though yes, I have heard that new Suhkoi is pretty slick.

Fly Navy
ENS USNR

 

[rare21]

if you can get your hands on it...read the article from Naval Aviation News of March-April 2003 about Agile Archer 2002 where they pitted F-18s, F-15s and German Air Force Mig-29s against each other. or maybe this is where you got the info from. Still its a good article by one of the F-18s pilots that pretty much showed that the Mig-29 is by far not superior to our jets. each has their own strengths and weaknesses.

 

[NavyLonghorn]

I read alot about that experiment. It is my understand that the germans were basically supposed to fly around and be targets.. and they hated it. Every once in a while their egos would get the best of them, and they would pull something out of their hats that would sometimes suprise the American pilots. Also, that was the Mig, not the su37.

 

[Fly Navy]

Originally posted by akamifeldman
Ummm...yeah. When was the last time the USA and Russia had a war again? OHH, right. Yeah, I heard they're planning one now, it'll fix their current hugely destabilizing economic crisis. Ahh, just kidding!

Do yourself a favor and take a look at the what aircraft our enemies use. MiG-29s in North Korea, China, and a few others. You don't think we export our own toys? Just because they are Russian aircraft doesn't mean only Russia flies them.

Fly Navy
ENS USNR

 

[jaerose]

I think our pilots' skill levels are better, in general, than you will find elsewhere. Also, the mig 29 is superior in maneuverability (possibly), but you have to think about the practicality of pulling 10Gs (exaggeration)...not too many humans can sustain that kind of stress for too long, or repeatedly. Plus, there is always the old ACM rules...like you cannot shoot what you cannot see...if you see your enemy first you're at an advantage etc. That means that the other guy can out-maneuver you, but if he can't see you before you see him it's useless. So, that puts stealth technology and radar technology at the top of the manufacturer's priority list.

Just my 16,000 pesos (roughly 2 cents)

JR

 

[Fly Navy]

I'm not terribly concerned. Iraq had a lot of US equipment, we did just fine in both wars. Remember, we don't typically give them the updated, current technology. Those F-14s that Iran has aren't exactly "useful" either. I never said US policy on arms dealing made sense, but in the Cold War, the enemy of my enemy is my friend was standard practice.

Fly Navy
ENS USNR

 

[Fly Navy]

One reason I'm not worried, we gave Japan and Spain SPY-1 phased array radar. You know the catch? We never taught them how to use it *grin*.

Fly Navy
ENS USNR

 

[Av Fan]

I think the only country that has been able to make much use out of the airplanes we have sold them is Israel with our F-16's. I remember watching or reading something about the F-14s we sold Iran(?) were only good until their first major overhaul. We "forgot" to sell them extra parts and other essential equipment. Woops.

Victory favors the bold

 

[jarhead]

read "Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988" by Tom Cooper & Farzad Bishop ... they talk about Iranian F-14's used during that War, including it's use of the AIM-54 & Aim-7's on several occasion's downing Iraqi aircraft.

semper fi

Originally posted by Patmack18
Isreal turned our F15's into a better airplane, not the 16. And if you read Adm. Gilcrist's book "TOMCAT!" he goes big into the Iranian F14's. They never even made it to an overhaul before the Shah was over thrown and the fundamentalists took over. They never figured out who it was, but the Grumman tech's that were in Iran at the time made the Iranian F14's basically unflyable before they split town and evacuated. They other thing that led to the demise of the Iranian F14's was the fact that as soon as the Shah was overthrown, you think Grumman kept sending them support parts? Whoever it was that trashed those 79 Tomcat's before they took off should be given a medal.


"Do you like Gladiator movies Timmy?"

 

[wildflyin69]

From what I've heard (don't quote me on this) the Mig is the superior fighter. However we have the superior pilots thanks to training, which more than slightly turns the field to our advantage proving once again that it's the training that really counts.

"Push the stick foward, the houses get bigger; pull back, the houses get smaller... unless you keep pulling back, then they get bigger again."

 

[kevin]

all good points. no doubt pilot skill is numero uno. during desert storm u.s. 15's shot down mig29s with no problem. but consider the iraqi pilots. most of those guys were probably pulled off a farm and shoved in the cockpit. as for which countries we hate and which we dont....the u.s. will always be in competition with russia. to think that just because we arent at war with russia we dont care what they have is foolish. half the reason the administration still wants to build this star wars project is because russia still has nukes (even though they claim it's to counter a rogue nuke threat). and today's friends are always tomorrow's enemies, and vice versa. particularly after russia's reactions towards our afgani endeavors and there "stuff" proliferating all over the place (including hussein) i would say our relations with them are far from perfect, not that we are going to go to war with them any time soon. america has always wanted to be the best, and i think currently we may not be, at least in this category. jaerose makes the point that stealth and radar are most important now, which is true, but maneuverability is still a major issue. not only was it a hard lesson learned during vietnam when the f4 got its but kicked by migs, but just look at the new technology- the f22's most radical feature is thrust vectoring to enhance turn performance. the x-31 (efm) was designed to investigate 2-dimensional thrust-vectoring for unprecedented maneuverability (j-turn, cobra, etc). even the the x-29 was used to study post stall maneuvering with the forward swept wings. figuring out how to make plance with superb maneuverability and speed has always been a problem. you had the f4 in vietnam that had horrible turn performance. you have the mach2.5 f15 which is better but still not the greatest at turning (especially right off the deck). the viper/18 are good turners but slower. the ruskies managed to create production fighters that not only have well over mach2 capabilities, but can outmanuever any of our fighters. my point is not that we are going to lose a war with anybody (airpower by itself wont do that anyway) but that in terms of the raw performance of production fighters, we are still behind the ruskies. and you can bet their pilots are very well trained (you'd have to be to figure out how to get your plane to do backward flips in the air and stay in control). and no, im not interested in being a russian pilot, so dont even start.

d-mac and jaerose: NICE! i will be at dayton either sat or sun with my parents (sat unless weather is a problem). if you are there we should figure out a way to meet up. it would be great to meet some fellow pilot wannabes (wallabies?). cant wait to see all the festivities, particularly the ww2 stuff and f86-mig17 dogfight.

 

[kevin]

all good points. no doubt pilot skill is numero uno. during desert storm u.s. 15's shot down mig29s with no problem. but consider the iraqi pilots. most of those guys were probably pulled off a farm and shoved in the cockpit. as for which countries we hate and which we dont....the u.s. will always be in competition with russia. to think that just because we arent at war with russia we dont care what they have is foolish. half the reason the administration still wants to build this star wars project is because russia still has nukes (even though they claim it's to counter a rogue nuke threat). and today's friends are always tomorrow's enemies, and vice versa. particularly after russia's reactions towards our afgani endeavors and there "stuff" proliferating all over the place (including hussein) i would say our relations with them are far from perfect, not that we are going to go to war with them any time soon. america has always wanted to be the best, and i think currently we may not be, at least in this category. jaerose makes the point that stealth and radar are most important now, which is true, but maneuverability is still a major issue. not only was it a hard lesson learned during vietnam when the f4 got its but kicked by migs, but just look at the new technology- the f22's most radical feature is thrust vectoring to enhance turn performance. the x-31 (efm) was designed to investigate 2-dimensional thrust-vectoring for unprecedented maneuverability (j-turn, cobra, etc). even the the x-29 was used to study post stall maneuvering with the forward swept wings. figuring out how to make plance with superb maneuverability and speed has always been a problem. you had the f4 in vietnam that had horrible turn performance. you have the mach2.5 f15 which is better but still not the greatest at turning (especially right off the deck). the viper/18 are good turners but slower. the ruskies managed to create production fighters that not only have well over mach2 capabilities, but can outmanuever any of our fighters. my point is not that we are going to lose a war with anybody (airpower by itself wont do that anyway) but that in terms of the raw performance of production fighters, we are still behind the ruskies. and you can bet their pilots are very well trained (you'd have to be to figure out how to get your plane to do backward flips in the air and stay in control). and no, im not interested in being a russian pilot, so dont even start.

d-mac and jaerose: NICE! i will be at dayton either sat or sun with my parents (sat unless weather is a problem). if you are there we should figure out a way to meet up. it would be great to meet some fellow pilot wannabes (wallabies?). cant wait to see all the festivities, particularly the ww2 stuff and f86-mig17 dogfight.

 

[kevin]

oops. sorry, i dont know what just happened, but computer peed on me or something.