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Farting in Church

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
...some old standard bitches about cost vs. ROTC etc...but the comparative section is new and interesting...
That is an understatement!

Glad I read the whole thing. I think I would use a stronger phrase than "new and interesting" to describe it. The author does a good job articulating and backing up his opinions and the article got me thinking.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
That is an understatement!
I would say it is an overstatement. Mr. Fleming has written damn near the same thing, year after year. If you really start reading into his writing - you'll realize that A LOT of his opinions are formed based on his discussions... with Plebes.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
I would say it is an overstatement. Mr. Fleming has written damn near the same thing, year after year. If you really start reading into his writing - you'll realize that A LOT of his opinions are formed based on his discussions... with Plebes.
Guilty on not being familiar with his writing; the "anti-PC-ness" of the article, especially from someone in his position, raised my eyebrows.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
Guilty on not being familiar with his writing; the "anti-PC-ness" of the article, especially from someone in his position, raised my eyebrows.
I would say about once a year or so, one of his articles come out...

He's an English teacher, so I would argue his sample size is small. Make it smaller by the fact that he teaches primarily Plebes and Youngsters. The two whiniest classes at USNA.

I won't lie, he raises good points in all of his essays - but I don't think it's the venue. And it also points out that he knows fuck-all about USNA outside of the English Department and what his students whine to him about.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
Overall, after chewing on it for a few hours...

I certainly value the tradition and history wrapped up in the Academy (ies actually). That said, I've yet to hear anyone intelligently defend the 400% extra cost of an Academy mid vice a ROTC mid. I'm certainly not trying to say that the Academy js without merit, but I do think that it is perhaps underperforming given it's high cost and given the financial constraints we are potentially facing, should fight for it's budget like anyone else.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
.....the "anti-PC-ness" of the article, especially from someone in his position, raised my eyebrows.

Not sure I would call this 'anti-PC-ness', "Let's have civilian Ph.D.'s for all the academies, ideally women—because so much of what we do seems to be just the nonsense of older men trying to force younger men to do what they say to get a simulacrum of respect".

The good professor seems to take a quite a bit of glee out of being some sort of 'internal' critic for the USNA and does so with tiring regularity as phrogpilot73 points out. It gets a little old from someone whose only experience with the military is confined within the walls of institution he seems to have such a love hate relationship with.

......I certainly value the tradition and history wrapped up in the Academy (ies actually). That said, I've yet to hear anyone intelligently defend the 400% extra cost of an Academy mid vice a ROTC mid. I'm certainly not trying to say that the Academy js without merit, but I do think that it is perhaps underperforming given it's high cost and given the financial constraints we are potentially facing, should fight for it's budget like anyone else.
It is the only 'certain' production source of officers for the military, other than OCS of course. Just because ROTC is enjoying a honeymoon period at most schools that doesn't mean they won't get kicked off again like some were 40 years ago. And if we really want to debate the value of RTOC vs the academies then how do either stack up against the cost savings of OCS?

Another thing to consider is the larger 'national service' these academies provide the country as a whole, giving anyone qualified a free quality education on the government's dime. Maybe it's some form of socialism but it certainly is a nice service for the citizens.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Not sure I would call this 'anti-PC-ness', "Let's have civilian Ph.D.'s for all the academies, ideally women—because so much of what we do seems to be just the nonsense of older men trying to force younger men to do what they say to get a simulacrum of respect".
You make a valid counterpoint, but I was referring to how he hammers away at affirmative action and use of the phrase "unqualified nonwhite students" ;)

Concur on the perennial "Are the service academies worth it?" articles (which, honestly, I usually shrug off) and I see your and phrogpilot's point about small sample size and narrow exposure to the military- nonetheless the professor raises some good points, backs up his arguments, and makes the effort to recommend some thoughtful solutions.

It is the only 'certain' production source of officers for the military, other than OCS of course. Just because ROTC is enjoying a honeymoon period at most schools that doesn't mean they won't get kicked off again like some were 40 years ago. And if we really want to debate the value of RTOC vs the academies then how do either stack up against the cost savings of OCS?
One of the funny things about OCS is the underdog complex there (I'm speaking as an OCS guy). We got the "OCS is a pressure cooker and ROTC is a crockpot/OCS commissions cost $ this much, ROTC cost $ that much, and Academy cost $ even more/OCS is hard because you have to want to be here and choose not to DOR each day" speech. It was good motivation and I admit I bought into some of it, but even with my three days of experience in the Navy I could smell propaganda when I heard it (there I go mixing my metaphors :D) . Sadly, I remember a small number of classmates really biting off on it (a 3-day Naval History class with a 50 question multiple choice "exam" is really equivalent to a semester-long college class? Really?). OCS is really great bang for the buck, it crams a lot of material into a little bit of time, it is by no means an easy program, and it turns out a decent product... but let's be honest about what is possible within three months.

(Flash, none of my commentary about the reality of OCS is meant to be argumentative against you or your comment- you just gave me a good opening.)
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
......Concur on the perennial "Are the service academies worth it?" articles (which, honestly, I usually shrug off) and I see your and phrogpilot's point about small sample size and narrow exposure to the military- nonetheless the professor raises some good points, backs up his arguments, and makes the effort to recommend some thoughtful solutions.
I agree that he has valid points but the comment about female PhDs and a few others in his articles/rants strike strike a bit of a 'false note', showing his unfamiliarity with the military as a whole. If he thinks Annapolis 'infantilizes' middies what the hell does he think boot camp or OCS does? And telling people when to wear civilian clothes or that they can't have sex on ship/post/base, unheard of in the 'real' military! :rolleyes: All of that kind of 'false note' stuff really undercuts his more valid arguements.

One of the funny things about OCS is the underdog complex there...I remember a small number of classmates really biting off on it.....OCS is really great bang for the buck, it crams a lot of material into a little bit of time, it is by no means an easy program, and it turns out a decent product... but let's be honest about what is possible within three months......
Letting that stuff get to one's head?! Say it ain't so!
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
I think OCS for the long training pipelines should be no better or worse on what it teaches you about the Navy,

Because, I'll be honest, by the time I got to the fleet, stuff I learned in college that was "important" to my career, was a bit fuzzy at times, and what I had learned in Flight Skool and in the Civ world was more useful in leadership than BOLC.

I'm not an Academy guy. BDCP/OCS (no the you can DOR wasn't in my cards) but I do wonder how much ROTC/Academy/OCS Reindeer Games really works into leadership, vice innate ability.

The cost per commission is a pretty solid argument. Question- Does Naptown have a full on hospital, and is that included in the cost? Not that it should make all the excess money vs ROTC, but here is my take.

I'm just wondering how the cost/student is arrived at. And how much of an apples-to-apples comparison it is to a "State School ROTC"

I've seen Bancroft. I can't really see how it is more expensive to maintain or heat than a normal college dorm of similar size. Especially since you have local indentured servants to do a lot of the grunt work. I will assume the Mids do most of the janitorial stuff, like at OCS. Correct if wrong.
Food. Full meal plan at U0fM Ann Arbor is $4640 for 2012. I'm assuming the food served all year is similar to Summer Seminar. Can't see it costing more than a normal college.
Mid Cruises. Should be about the same cost as ROTC, no?
Health care. I can see this being a bit more. Are ROTC covered by tricare other than MCECP and STA-21?
Teachers- Faculty to student ratio is comparable to my college (small private school of nerdery). Tuition there is about $30k/yr in 2012. Meal is $5k, and Dorms are 4k for $39k/yr all told.

I'm just trying to get a handle on where the extra money for a USNA student comes from. Not bashing, just curious. Is there a lot of wasted money, or is there something I'm missing that is unique to USNA and ungodly expensive. YPs are there, but I don't see them coming to more than 10k/mid/year.
 

C420sailor

Former Rhino Bro
pilot
Health care. I can see this being a bit more. Are ROTC covered by tricare other than MCECP and STA-21?
ROTC studs don't get healthcare. My school had a health clinic for basic things (sniffles, syphilis, etc) but after that you were on your own.
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
It is the only 'certain' production source of officers for the military, other than OCS of course. Just because ROTC is enjoying a honeymoon period at most schools that doesn't mean they won't get kicked off again like some were 40 years ago. And if we really want to debate the value of RTOC vs the academies then how do either stack up against the cost savings of OCS?

Another thing to consider is the larger 'national service' these academies provide the country as a whole, giving anyone qualified a free quality education on the government's dime. Maybe it's some form of socialism but it certainly is a nice service for the citizens.
Copy the instability of ROTC...good point, although the Federal funding club I suspect, is plenty to keep them in line.

The comparison of the academies and ROTC to OCS is apples to oranges. Both the academies and ROTC take high school educated inputs and confer both a degree and a commission in 4/5 years. OCS is cheaper (among other reasons) because there is no need to pay for the degree. It comes supplied.

Additionally, your "national service" notion is to me a non-starter since the same can be said of ROTC no? Anyone who applies and is qualified receives their degree in exchange for their service. How does this not apply equally to both? Additionally, while numbers would be hard to compile on this, I suspect that anyone qualified for a ROTC scholarship or service academy admission will likely already be attending college on someones dime...be it the taxpayers or via private scholarships etc...they are no doubt qualified for.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
I was discussing this at dinner, and I think that's the one big thing we have to keep ROTC units on campus that we didn't so much in the 1960s.

Back then, there were a lot less students dependent on FedGov via student loans, Pell Grants, etc.. Nevermind the things the school gets funds for directly from the feds.

Much bigger club to beat them over the head with now.
 
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