F-35B/C Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)

[Swanee]

So again, I guess the big question is that if the F-35B is more than we can chew- What do we get that can fulfill the needs of the Marine Corps? As much of a shit sandwich the F-35B may turn out to be, where else do we go? We can't replace all of our Hornets and Harriers with 100 total airplanes. It will be interesting to see what happens...

 

[Birdog8585]

How are you going to land it...refit the LHD with an angle deck and arresting gear too?

Never mind...

Not trying to be a debbie downer, just some more "expectation management"* in the conversation.

Almost forgot about the four year old OV-10 thread: http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php/15926-Return-of-the-OV-10-for-USMC? and the bene that the OV-10 guys wouldn't have the dreaded "multi engine BUT" / centerline thrust restriction

OV-10x is/would be a first choice for a multitude of logical reasons but short of it being a proverbial "phoenix" rising from 16 year old ashes, I doubt you could persuade the upper echelon to act on it at this point.

 

[wlawr005]

I agree that approaching the idea from a different angle is a much needed change of pace. I don't think a major retrofit of the LHD fleet is the answer though, that's kind of like building snow machines on every civilian runway just so 747's can have skis...

 

[mmx1]

What does lite FW CAS bring to the table that RW CAS can't, other than range and loiter time? You still lose OCA, EW, and honestly, any serious deep strike capacity against even rudimentary IADS. If we're dependent on Navy/AF support for air ops in any serious threat environment that really weakens the argument for us to have an independent air wing. I know you have a hardon for CAS, but the other functions of Marine Aviation aren't there for show.

 

[Lawman]

What does lite FW CAS bring to the table that RW CAS can't, other than range and loiter time? You still lose OCA, EW, and honestly, any serious deep strike capacity against even rudimentary IADS. If we're dependent on Navy/AF support for air ops in any serious threat environment that really weakens the argument for us to have an independent air wing. I know you have a hardon for CAS, but the other functions of Marine Aviation aren't there for show.

The absolute only thing these lite CAS aircraft bring to the table that the new Zulu or a 64D can't do is range/loiter time.

They cant observe and ID as well as we can with the new FLIR we have. Sorry I dont care how low and slow you can fly, I can kick around at Max RC/E around 75 knots and just fly bowties or left orbits while the CPG stays eyes on with the TADS and be ready to immediately push in and put steal on target from any point in that profile. They can do that. They dont bring anything heavier than a 500lbs bomb to the fight and with the scenarios we are dealing with most of the time you couldnt drop something that heavy for fear of collateral damage. Thats one of the big reasons for the new laser guided FFARs that we're developing. Apparently the Warhead on a K2A Hellfire is too big to keep from breaking windows and kicking up gravel and we cant have any of that. It cant deliver fires as accurately as we can.

Im not saying the lite CAS SOCOM aircraft theyre building isnt a great tool to have in the bag. But, people on here are intending it for missions well beyond what it was designed to do. The whole purpose of that aircraft is to give some sort of low altitude persistent air support similar to what you would expect from a R/W gunship. However its supposed to deliver that support to guys well outside the AO a rotory wing aircraft could operate in either due to range/altitude/both. Its not supposed to be the MUE's heavy hammer for that Apposed Amphibious Landing Operation the Marines keep maintaining a mission for (questionable as that is given the last 50 years).

 

[Flash]

What does lite FW CAS bring to the table that RW CAS can't, other than range and loiter time?......

The absolute only thing these lite CAS aircraft bring to the table that the new Zulu or a 64D can't do is range/loiter time.

They cant observe and ID as well as we can with the new FLIR we have. Sorry I dont care how low and slow you can fly, I can kick around at Max RC/E around 75 knots and just fly bowties or left orbits while the CPG stays eyes on with the TADS and be ready to immediately push in and put steal on target from any point in that profile. They can do that. They dont bring anything heavier than a 500lbs bomb to the fight and with the scenarios we are dealing with most of the time you couldnt drop something that heavy for fear of collateral damage. Thats one of the big reasons for the new laser guided FFARs that we're developing. Apparently the Warhead on a K2A Hellfire is too big to keep from breaking windows and kicking up gravel and we cant have any of that. It cant deliver fires as accurately as we can.......

You all should not be so dismissive of the advantages of fixed-wing 'light CAS'. There are several advantages to the Super Tucano/AT-6/PC-9/KT-1's of the world over attack helicopters. Some examples:

-Wider variety of ordnance to include precision guided bombs (including Small Diameter Bombs) and almost all the rockets and missiles the AH-64 and AH-1 carry. Those 500 pounders might not be used as much any more but it is still nice to have them.
-More payload=more bombs/missiles/fuel.
-Greater range/more persistence. Why does that matter so much? Two A-29's that can loiter for 4 hours can do the work of 6 Apaches that loiter for a little over an hour.
-Much greater capability at higher altitudes. The Apaches had trouble at Tora Bora.
-Faster. Why does it matter for CAS? Gets you to the fight faster, which sure as hell matters to the guy on the ground getting shot at, waiting 5 minutes is better than 10.
-Quieter. The first thing the enemy might hear is the impact of the bombs falling on them, everyone can hear an Apache wandering around. Dont' think it is an advantage, ask Raul Reyes about that. Oh wait, nevermind......

Then there are the other advantages that might not be so evident to those that don't have to deal with them:

-Cheaper. The Super Tucano is half the cost of an Apache up front. With the required support for all of the unique systems throughout the life of the aircraft, there is a reason third world countries have lined up to buy the Super Tucano and only the richest buy the Apache.
-Maintenance. Much easier to maintain a slightly souped up fixed-wing trainer than a purpose built attack helo (see above).
-Systems. Much more 'plug and play'. Need a new EO/IR system? Buy a new pod and slap it on. Usually a little bit more than that with a helo.

At last but most importantly in the case of Imminent Fury, the Navy's A-29 program, they were going to have very experienced combat aircrew who knew the FAC(A) and CAS missions through and through, and that was the most important piece of the puzzle. Whatever they did not bring to the fight they would be able to call it in and control it themselves, part of the whole point.

There are disadvantages to fixed-wing aircraft as well but they both have their strengths and weaknesses, part of the reason we have a mix in our military. But don't be so besotted with your new ride to be blind to it's disadvantages or the advantages of other platforms. Especially when you come from a service that treats it's aircraft like flying trucks.

As for the Marines and 'light CAS' aircraft, it might be a good idea in the current conflict but maybe too much of a niche for them, they have bigger procurement battles to fight right now.

 

[Lawman]

You all should not be so dismissive of the advantages of fixed-wing 'light CAS'. There are several advantages to the Super Tucano/AT-6/PC-9/KT-1's of the world over attack helicopters. Some examples:

-Wider variety of ordnance to include precision guided bombs (including Small Diameter Bombs) and almost all the rockets and missiles the AH-64 and AH-1 carry. Those 500 pounders might not be used as much any more but it is still nice to have them.
-More payload=more bombs/missiles/fuel.
-Greater range/more persistence. Why does that matter so much? Two A-29's that can loiter for 4 hours can do the work of 6 Apaches that loiter for a little over an hour.
-Much greater capability at higher altitudes. The Apaches had trouble at Tora Bora.
-Faster. Why does it matter for CAS? Gets you to the fight faster, which sure as hell matters to the guy on the ground getting shot at, waiting 5 minutes is better than 10.
-Quieter. The first thing the enemy might hear is the impact of the bombs falling on them, everyone can hear an Apache wandering around. Dont' think it is an advantage, ask Raul Reyes about that. Oh wait, nevermind......

Flash I wouldnt even argue Range and speed but thats really the only clear advantage.

Rockets.... For 1 you arent gonna have the variety of weapons to use nor the effectiveness. Putting a Rocket inside of a 60'x60' space is hard enough when your doing 75 knots from 5km out and have a while to line up, say your 4T's, fire... adjust... fire... adjust.... etc. Try doing it from a dive that starts at 2-300 knots and see how much your shooting goes from a single well placed rocket to dumping the whole pod and hoping one of those 19 hit something or at least scares the badguys. Same with aerial gunfire. About the only thing that can deliver as accurately to a R/W with a turret is the Spectre. 58Ds have a hard enough time firing their guns accurately against small ground targets its not gonna get better with higher speed, higher altitude, and less time to correct. Second there are rockets we in the R/W community can use that would just not work for these aircraft. M261 MPSMs cant be shot faster than 90 knots for fear you'll fly under the loft pattern and rain your own submunitions on your head. Flachettes are only effective from 1.5-3000 meters. Outside that the pattern is too loose, inside that the damn thing wont fuse and you have a big lump of metal that wont do much to anything. Yeah they can carry the 10lbs or 17lbs PD's or even Smoke marking rockets but thats a very limited bag. Yes that 500lbs bomb could be great on some situations but Id very quickly argue that a K2A with its blast Frag sleeve delivered accurately will solve many of the same problems for a ground commander,and I can bring it in a lot closer to friendly troops without needing a set of initials.

As for whether you can hear us or not ask all the dead people the 82nd stacked up when they were the first unit to go into Iraq with MTADS. The altitudes we're at you wont hear us either, not if we're doing out job and staying at our typical standoff range while observing with narrow and zoom FOV FLIR/DTV. With the legacy TADS at 3km a target the size of a truck is barely identifiable, a person is just a white blob you cant PID anything. With MTADS I can tell you whether those people are carrying AKs or RPKs. The price to implace an IED went up 10 fold during that deployment because people thought the bombs just blew up accidentally. They didnt realize it was the 82nd dropping Hellfires like halloween Candy on anybody observed after dark by the side of the road.

Im a supporter for the program they are buying into. I think this is a great aircraft to operate from austere airfields in order to support those guys like LRST or Delta or Green Berets. It would be a great long station time observation platform but you could arguably do that job just as well with Reapers which carry the same payload, and have the added advantage of Crew fatigue not effecting mission performance. But people on here are talking about bringing this aircraft on to the deck of an LHA to let it be the new A1 Skyraider. In the day of MANPADs like the SA16 Id argue the age of the A1 is pretty much done.

 

[mmx1]

The point though (to reiterate the last half of Lawman's post), is that F/W vs R/W CAS is a narrow comparison of tactical abilities. In the big picture they're still just different varieties of delivering air-to ground ordnance, and a Tucano can't take on all the essential roles of a strike fighter in the Wing, not without surrendering our ability to operate independently in our battlespace. I, too, am a fan of turboprop CAS platforms.....as an augment to R/W, not as a replacement for fast-movers.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

The point though (to reiterate the last half of Lawman's post), is that F/W vs R/W CAS is a narrow comparison of tactical abilities. In the big picture they're still just different varieties of delivering air-to ground ordnance, and a Tucano can't take on all the essential roles of a strike fighter in the Wing, not without surrendering our ability to operate independently in our battlespace. I, too, am a fan of turboprop CAS platforms.....as an augment to R/W, not as a replacement for fast-movers.

Agreed. The turbo props seem to offer affordability more than anything. If the F-35 gets figured out it will be a whole different level.

 

[phrogdriver]

Short term affordability, maybe, but long-term, not so much. Move pilots into some type of interim turboprop platform, and you're moving them out of somewhere else, be that AV-8Bs, F/A-18s, or skids. That's in addition to the training, basing, logistics, etc. I think that's why this sort of thing is finding traction in the special warfare side, more so than in the regular forces. They have the budget to allocate for short-term, one-off solutions that the rest of the military doesn't. It would be great if we had the flexibility in the process overall to do this. Unfortunately the spec war types will want to lick their own ice cream cone with their assets. The regular component commanders will not want to lose X number of jets in the long-term for a Y CAS turboprops only relevant in the short-term fight.

It would be cool to lease say, two squadrons, of Super Ts for example. One training unit in CONUS and one permanently based in theater. Pilots would rotate in for an 18 or 24 month B-billet tour, time spent almost entirely overseas, before going back to their fleet platform. I think that funding that would be a nightmare, though.

 

[pourts]

Get the Super Tucano: the damn thing has 6hrs+ endurance. Remember that the Navy is getting a dozen or so of them to cover Seals' operations.

Check this out: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3989450

If the Corps can't use this a/c, they're too damned spoiled for helping.

6 hour endurance with ordinance? I am skeptical.

 

[pourts]

In the day of MANPADs like the SA16 Id argue the age of the A1 is pretty much done.

This.
Every one is writing off stealth like it is the silliest thing since the pet rock. These procurement decisions are being made for the long term. Last time I checked technology is getting cheaper, smaller, and easier to smuggle across borders.
I also want as good of a chance of coming home in one piece as the Air Force and Navy pilots will get with their F-35s. The Corps won't suffer well sitting on the sidelines just because its airplanes aren't as stealthy.

Rhinos or some flavor of JSF. Don't buy planes for the Bannana Wars and call it fixed wing strike.

 

[Fog]

This.
Every one is writing off stealth like it is the silliest thing since the pet rock. These procurement decisions are being made for the long term. Last time I checked technology is getting cheaper, smaller, and easier to smuggle across borders.
I also want as good of a chance of coming home in one piece as the Air Force and Navy pilots will get with their F-35s. The Corps won't suffer well sitting on the sidelines just because its airplanes aren't as stealthy.

Rhinos or some flavor of JSF. Don't buy planes for the Bannana Wars and call it fixed wing strike.

(a) I was wrong: Navy's not getting Super Tucano's, as the Kansas congressional delegation shot that down;

(b) Marine Air hardly needs stealthy a/c to fight the Taliban & Al-Queada air forces (IOW, When was last time Marine Air flew a deep-strike mission in contested airspace?).

 

[mmx1]

OIF I and the strikes launched under Operation Southern Watch during the leadup to the war. Contested in the air, not so much but there was a credible IADS threat.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

(a) I was wrong: Navy's not getting Super Tucano's, as the Kansas congressional delegation shot that down;

(b) Marine Air hardly needs stealthy a/c to fight the Taliban & Al-Queada air forces (IOW, When was last time Marine Air flew a deep-strike mission in contested airspace?).

You really seem to think that the Marines will only fight in Afghanistan. If Marines will have their own strike capability, then it needs to be something we can use against any potential enemy.