F-35B/C Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)

[Fog]

My post was partly TIC, but (a) the USMC obviously can't afford 370 F-35Bs @ $150MM+/copy, (b) a stealthy CAS a/c is totally wasted $$ anyway, and (c) to keep a significant fixed-wing presence they need to get with the Super Hornet program and stop acting as if the a/c is beneath them. Otherwise, they end up either (a) w/ ~ 100 F-35Bs & lose the rest of their fixed-wing a/c budget or (b) a rotary wing service altogether. This will be sorted out well above our pay grades, but $$ for the U.S. military are gonna get much fewer and harder to find in the future. No way there's $60bn out there for a new Marine a/c that has development issues like the MV-22 Osprey and still gets done.

 

[Swanee]

My post was partly TIC, but (a) the USMC obviously can't afford 370 F-35Bs @ $150MM+/copy, (b) a stealthy CAS a/c is totally wasted $$ anyway, and (c) to keep a significant fixed-wing presence they need to get with the Super Hornet program and stop acting as if the a/c is beneath them. Otherwise, they end up either (a) w/ ~ 100 F-35Bs & lose the rest of their fixed-wing a/c budget or (b) a rotary wing service altogether. This will be sorted out well above our pay grades, but $$ for the U.S. military are gonna much fewer and harder to find in the future. No way there's $60bn out there for a new Marine a/c that has development issues like the MV-22 Osprey and still gets done.

Super Hornets don't support a MEU so well... Fixed wing aircraft off of an LHD(and it's sisters) require stovl. We either buy the F-35 or develop something else that is new (and costs even more money). We aren't going to develop a new CAS airplane that isn't stealth unless we get on board with the AT-6 and such airplanes. But then how are they contained within a MEU? Plus, we don't need just a CAS airplane, we need one that will do everything, and do it off of those LHDs... The F-35 is the answer (for now) and the less we buy the more they will cost. In fact, I read a study from some university PHD dissertation from an O-6 AF type that basically broke down how the 300 or so F-22s that we bought could have bought us 550, but we kept cutting numbers- therefore the price per copy went up. (That 550 is a made up number, I'll try to dig up the study. I understand it isn't 100% accurate but it has plenty of merit)

 

[pilot_man]

Super Hornets don't support a MEU so well... Fixed wing aircraft off of an LHD(and it's sisters) require stovl. We either buy the F-35 or develop something else that is new (and costs even more money). We aren't going to develop a new CAS airplane that isn't stealth unless we get on board with the AT-6 and such airplanes. But then how are they contained within a MEU? Plus, we don't need just a CAS airplane, we need one that will do everything, and do it off of those LHDs... The F-35 is the answer (for now) and the less we buy the more they will cost. In fact, I read a study from some university PHD dissertation from an O-6 AF type that basically broke down how the 300 or so F-22s that we bought could have bought us 550, but we kept cutting numbers- therefore the price per copy went up. (That 550 is a made up number, I'll try to dig up the study. I understand it isn't 100% accurate but it has plenty of merit)

Since there isn't one platform doing the job right now, there doesn't have to be one in the future. The point that you don't need stealth platforms for CAS is pretty valid. Are we really going to send in out 150 million dollar AC to do CAS, I'm not sure that's a great idea. Looking at the AT-6, and Super Hornets might be a good thing.

 

[Clux4]

Since there isn't one platform doing the job right now, there doesn't have to be one in the future. The point that you don't need stealth platforms for CAS is pretty valid. Are we really going to send in out 150 million dollar AC to do CAS, I'm not sure that's a great idea. Looking at the AT-6, and Super Hornets might be a good thing.

It is funny to read the same thing I was thinking. But I was also thinking about time on station. How do you improve the TOS of an AT-6 without a in-flight refueling probe. Don't know what the TOS for a loaded AT-6 will be but might be comparable to the Harrier. Also, how do you land the AT-6 on an LHD? I think the AT-6 will fill a void temporarily but not a permanent fix.

 

[Fog]

It is funny to read the same thing I was thinking. But I was also thinking about time on station. How do you improve the TOS of an AT-6 without a in-flight refueling probe. Don't know what the TOS for a loaded AT-6 will be but might be comparable to the Harrier. Also, how do you land the AT-6 on an LHD? I think the AT-6 will fill a void temporarily but not a permanent fix.

Get the Super Tucano: the damn thing has 6hrs+ endurance. Remember that the Navy is getting a dozen or so of them to cover Seals' operations.

Check this out: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3989450

If the Corps can't use this a/c, they're too damned spoiled for helping.

 

[Swanee]

Since there isn't one platform doing the job right now, there doesn't have to be one in the future. The point that you don't need stealth platforms for CAS is pretty valid. Are we really going to send in out 150 million dollar AC to do CAS, I'm not sure that's a great idea. Looking at the AT-6, and Super Hornets might be a good thing.

I agree with the stealth argument, but what fixed wing CAS asset can we have that can fly off of an LHD? Our options are pretty limited. It's more like: we have an airplane that can do deep strike and anti-air (for both of which stealth is a plus right?) and can take off and land from an LHD, so lets make it do CAS as well... Maybe I'm misunderstanding something in the way that a young primary stud can easily do, but I thought the whole point of the F-35 on the MEU is that it gives the MEU (and the MEU Commander) a total combined arms package without having to rely on a CSG or land based assets.

 

[pilot_man]

I'm not sure about the status of the Super T, but I think anything that is able to provide 6 hours of overhead time, beats the crap out of my Hornet, or Super Hornet. I'm not sure you would be able to land any light FW on a LHD, but maybe that isn't necessary. If the Marines had Super Hornets, then they could provide the quick response roll, just not as part of a MEU. The Super T or AT-6 could forward deploy and do the job required. As far as the F-35's abilities, yes, it would be great to have those capabilities with the MEU, but I don't think they are required, nor even smart with the expense of where the B is going. If it gets to the point that we are doing something that requires a deep strike or A/A capability, then it's probably best to wait for the CSG anyways. It's hard for me to say, but there is much more to A/A than just the pointy nose guys.

 

[MasterBates]

Stealth without external cueing isn't really all that stealthy.

And Hummer's aren't in the ESG last I checked.

 

[Swanee]

And Hummer's aren't in the ESG last I checked.

Touche salesman.

 

[jarhead]

Stealth without external cueing isn't really all that stealthy.

And Hummer's aren't in the ESG last I checked.

...but SPY-1 is.

------------------------------------

While buying F/A-18F's block II makes sense to me, HQMC will dig in it's heels for the F-35B. It's already set in motion... a working group at MAWTS-1, a squadron CO has already been named, the RAG is being established... the F-35B is the Commandant's & DC Air's baby. The Corps will make it work, just like it did with the MV-22B.

If any of you have ever seen Marine FAC's on the ground request Marine Hornets/Harriers over AF or Navy aircraft, you'll understand why the Corps has fixed wing air. There's something about hearing a voice over the radio that you recognize...

In a dreamworld, the Corps would have F/A-18F's, A-10's, and AC-130's.

S/F

 

[Birdog8585]

Ok this might be an unorthodox idea, but it’s outside the box so hear me out.

We're debating an issue with the JSF on whether or not it is even feasible to continue to develop when there are cheaper more proven options out there, i.e. Rhino as the interim solution and the AT-6 and Super-T as a permanent buy. The follow-on problem in choosing one of the aforementioned - in terms of the USMC - is the issue of having them aboard an LHD/LHA in order to have the complete package. So if that's the problem why not address that issue with the black-shoe side of the Navy.

What I'm saying is, now that we have Electromagnetic catapults, how much of an ordeal would it be to retrofit LHA's with E-Mag Cats? Now you can shoot light FW CAS assets from our beloved MEU that are not Harriers. The SWO types will have to chime in here but, from what I heard and structurally speaking, E-Mag cats are way less intrusive than their steam predecessors. So it would seem, to the naive aviator, that this makes sense from many angles.

Cost. The cost savings from buying Super-Ts or AT-6s vice the JSF I think goes without saying. Those savings can be looped into developing an E-Mag retrofit for the Amphibs and couple necessary upgrades to the aircraft.

Simplicity. A turbo-prop is a simple and less complex platform than a JSF could ever think about being. More than likely, the maintenance issues that would arise would be due to the salty marine environment, not from an engineer’s bad prediction of component failure rates; both turbo-prop options already have an established record. Moreover, as mentioned earlier, why does it have to be stealth? Nothing in the ACE is very stealthy and we’ve been doing fine up to this point – yeah, yeah future threats, blah, blah – then let the Air Force deal with those threats!

Drawbacks. A set of folding wings would have to be included along with some beefy gear (after adding that weight this might be countered with a beefier engine?). Selling congress on this type of redirection is in the mix. And of course the big one, bringing her back aboard. Insert the huge Naval safety center chart of how mishap rates were significantly reduced with the advent of angled decks, yeah I got it. So the problem of a bolter is understandable, but with relative touchdown speed nowhere near that of a jet and having tricycle gear rather than a tail-dragger of days old, this should alleviate a portion of that problem it seems.

Just some thoughts to make our heads go in a different direction for a bit. Anyways, the other horse is bleeding out as he limps away.

 

[Fog]

BD85: Great thoughts & ideas. Sometimes the best ideas come from those who've been there - not 0-8s & GS-18s. For sure, a stealthy, $150MM F-35B is the most expensive approach to the problem.

 

["The Brick"]

F-35/Super T

I personally feel that we haven't seen the next dynamic hit this problem yet. I know everyone is talking about price/cost issues so far, but the budget cuts will hit the F-35 harder than we are even thinking right now. The super T seems logical, but as far as the MEU goes I dont think it's logical. Too much development needs to be done to make that A/C ship worthy. The Rhino seems like a cheap fix, but the issue is that the Marine Corps does not want to replace the hornet with another hornet that has to be tied to the carrier. The Corps hates loosing fixed wing squadrons to Navy air wing's, so having an F-35B only platform solves that 'problem'. USMC's future lies in flexibility, and frankly the Rhino doesn't provide the Corps the flexibility it needs.

 

[wlawr005]

Ok this might be an unorthodox idea, but it’s outside the box so hear me out.

We're debating an issue with the JSF on whether or not it is even feasible to continue to develop when there are cheaper more proven options out there, i.e. Rhino as the interim solution and the AT-6 and Super-T as a permanent buy. The follow-on problem in choosing one of the aforementioned - in terms of the USMC - is the issue of having them aboard an LHD/LHA in order to have the complete package. So if that's the problem why not address that issue with the black-shoe side of the Navy.

What I'm saying is, now that we have Electromagnetic catapults, how much of an ordeal would it be to retrofit LHA's with E-Mag Cats? Now you can shoot light FW CAS assets from our beloved MEU that are not Harriers. The SWO types will have to chime in here but, from what I heard and structurally speaking, E-Mag cats are way less intrusive than their steam predecessors. So it would seem, to the naive aviator, that this makes sense from many angles.

Cost. The cost savings from buying Super-Ts or AT-6s vice the JSF I think goes without saying. Those savings can be looped into developing an E-Mag retrofit for the Amphibs and couple necessary upgrades to the aircraft.

Simplicity. A turbo-prop is a simple and less complex platform than a JSF could ever think about being. More than likely, the maintenance issues that would arise would be due to the salty marine environment, not from an engineer’s bad prediction of component failure rates; both turbo-prop options already have an established record. Moreover, as mentioned earlier, why does it have to be stealth? Nothing in the ACE is very stealthy and we’ve been doing fine up to this point – yeah, yeah future threats, blah, blah – then let the Air Force deal with those threats!

Drawbacks. A set of folding wings would have to be included along with some beefy gear (after adding that weight this might be countered with a beefier engine?). Selling congress on this type of redirection is in the mix. And of course the big one, bringing her back aboard. Insert the huge Naval safety center chart of how mishap rates were significantly reduced with the advent of angled decks, yeah I got it. So the problem of a bolter is understandable, but with relative touchdown speed nowhere near that of a jet and having tricycle gear rather than a tail-dragger of days old, this should alleviate a portion of that problem it seems.

Just some thoughts to make our heads go in a different direction for a bit. Anyways, the other horse is bleeding out as he limps away.

How are you going to land it...refit the LHD with an angle deck and arresting gear too?

 

[Jim123]

What I'm saying is, now that we have Electromagnetic catapults, how much of an ordeal would it be to retrofit LHA's with E-Mag Cats? Now you can shoot light FW CAS assets from our beloved MEU that are not Harriers.

Well... the V-22 exhaust nozzle pizza pans/flight deck heat shields are, ummm, a modern example of something that seemed really simple...

A set of folding wings would have to be included along with some beefy gear (after adding that weight this might be countered with a beefier engine?).

For a close to home examples of how to navalize land-based aircraft, compare the BAE Hawk with the T-45 or the early Blackhawks with the early Seahawks. Usually what starts out as a hotrod evolves into an OK performer.

Not trying to be a debbie downer, just some more "expectation management"* in the conversation.

Almost forgot about the four year old OV-10 thread: http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php/15926-Return-of-the-OV-10-for-USMC? and the bene that the OV-10 guys wouldn't have the dreaded "multi engine BUT" / centerline thrust restriction




*Awwwwww, I used a staff officer buzzword