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F-22 Utilized in First Combat Mission

Recovering LSO said:
Let's not go perpetuating any more bad ideas around here...
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I am not a B-1 cheerleader but I got a buddy who flies B-1's whose crew got the Mackay Trophy for their actions in the Battle of Wanat, not sure if the guys on the ground who were helped out think that their support was a bad idea.
 
Flash said:
I am not a B-1 cheerleader but I got a buddy who flies B-1's whose crew got the Mackay Trophy for their actions in the Battle of Wanat, not sure if the guys on the ground who were helped out think that their support was a bad idea.
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To counter your anecdote with an anecdote, the good guys they killed on the ground in Afghanistan a few months ago would.

In terms of a more sound argument, my understanding of their systems and TCC based on the accounts of that incident causes me to lean towards RLSO's opinion of Bone CAS. The thing brings very impressive firepower to the fight, but it's not setup to be an effective asset for that mission set. Of course, that obviously doesn't mean it's always ineffective there either.
 
JDAMS were a game changer in heavies doing CAS. They've been doing it for more that a decade. Shit, bones have targeting pods now. It's about payload volume and time on station. As long as nobody kicks the numbers...........bad guys get dead real quick.
 
jmcquate said:
JDAMS were a game changer in heavies doing CAS. They've been doing it for more that a decade. Shit, bones have targeting pods now. It's about payload volume and time on station. As long as nobody kicks the numbers...........bad guys get dead real quick.
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I'd say it has more to do with staying relevant and funded as a community.
 
First Super T's rolling out of Jax for the Afghans...God help us...training out of Moody.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/new-military-planes-roll-out-of-jacksonville-plant/28247746

Tucano4-jpg.jpg
 
armada1651 said:
To counter your anecdote with an anecdote, the good guys they killed on the ground in Afghanistan a few months ago would.

In terms of a more sound argument, my understanding of their systems and TCC based on the accounts of that incident causes me to lean towards RLSO's opinion of Bone CAS. The thing brings very impressive firepower to the fight, but it's not setup to be an effective asset for that mission set. Of course, that obviously doesn't mean it's always ineffective there either.
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Anecdotes for all my friends:
B-1s were also the only people to ask me for the friendly grid after I had read them a BOC 9-line and gotten read backs. Let that sink in for a moment.

I don't know if it's a system setup thing or a training thing, but it was scary that the aircrew thought nothing of it and didn't understand the implications. That alone told me that before we go and say everyone in the world does CAS, maybe we should look at how much they train to it and their proficiency level before we call them real CAS platforms.
 
squeeze said:
Anecdotes for all my friends:
B-1s were also the only people to ask me for the friendly grid after I had read them a BOC 9-line and gotten read backs. Let that sink in for a moment.

I don't know if it's a system setup thing or a training thing, but it was scary that the aircrew thought nothing of it and didn't understand the implications. That alone told me that before we go and say everyone in the world does CAS, maybe we should look at how much they train to it and their proficiency level before we call them real CAS platforms.
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Probably because of the 2001 B-52 friendly fire incident when the JTAC's GPS reset causing them to read their own coordinates instead of the target for line 6. We always teach crew to plot target and friendlies IOT check that the line 8 distance and bearing actually makes sense, as well as sensor correlate with the JTAC when possible (i.e, that grid falls at the east side of a bridge over a N-S river allowing a final crew-JTAC crosscheck that the coordinates are where he intended them).

You are correct, ideally there would be no friendly grids on the radio but without TRPs or sensor/visual talk on to friendlies they need some way to crosscheck line 8 in a BOC situation.
 
magnetfreezer said:
Probably because of the 2001 B-52 friendly fire incident when the JTAC's GPS reset causing them to read their own coordinates instead of the target for line 6. We always teach crew to plot target and friendlies IOT check that the line 8 distance and bearing actually makes sense, as well as sensor correlate with the JTAC when possible (i.e, that grid falls at the east side of a bridge over a N-S river allowing a final crew-JTAC crosscheck that the coordinates are where he intended them).

You are correct, ideally there would be no friendly grids on the radio but without TRPs or sensor/visual talk on to friendlies they need some way to crosscheck line 8 in a BOC situation.
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No they don't. There is no requirement anywhere in 3-09.3 that says the aircrew must crosscheck line 8 in a BOC type scenario. Sure, given a situation where friendly positions are passed and a 9-line is subsequently passed, they should make every effort to verify the target it not coincidental with a friendly position. This is obvious. In a TIC where you check on and get an immediate BOC 9-line w/o the JTAC asking for your check-in is not the time to play that game.

But you implying that is is a requirement is exactly the kind of lack of CAS understanding I'm referring to that is rampant in the USAF. It's the same kind of thing that leads to stupid SPINS that require read backs of nearly the entire 9-line. It's CYA idiocy.

Your "preaching" of individual TTPs seems to be overriding a thorough understanding of Joint CAS procedures.

To continue my anecdote:
I asked the a/c "What? you want a friendly grid after you read back a BOC 9-line? Not happening. It's in Line 8." After a little more back and forth (and no friendly pos passed), they finally ran the attack and hit the target. Extremely slow execution from read backs to TOT though.
 
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