Everyone says don't enlist... (OCS non-select, considering enlisting)

[werdna]

Hello everyone,

Thanks so far for all the resources and responses, they have been invaluable during my OCS application. I went to the March boards and was a non-select for SNA and SNFO. I have since considered pursuing a commission through enlisting. I know the usual response - "if you want to be an officer, apply to be an officer", etc. However, I would appreciate any advice on my situation.

Basic stats:

Male, 23 (24 in June)
2.88 GPA from University of Southern California
Business Degree
PPL, 80 hours
ASTB, 8,7 (pfar), 8 66 OAR

The bad:

DUI and 6 traffic tickets

As you can see, there is an obvious reason why I was a non-select. Although I was young and immature at the time, I think that in the eyes of the Navy, it's still too recent (2006) to be overlooked. I have learned much and matured since getting my DUI and regard it as my worst decision ever.

That being said, my goal is to become a Naval Aviator. I expect to reach my goal, but need help discovering the safest route. I just need to draw the map. Here are some of my ideas:

Option 1

• Enlist - show dedication to serving my country and being part of the Navy

• School - Continue education while in the Navy, Masters Degree to offset my relatively low GPA. Shoot for an aviation related degree.

• Rating - Probably AW, would love to be in and around aircraft and going on flights. Being in the aviation community would keep me driven and happy, IMO.

• Community Service - CAP? Or something similar.

• GI Bill - Use to build flight hours and help pay for master's degree. Apparently I can only use this after 3 years of continuous service?

• Age Waiver - Enlisting brings with it the prospect of an age waiver down the line. SNA is what I really want. 27 non-prior gives me 3 years to accomplish all of the above. Enlisting gives me 5 years (if waiver is granted). I feel I may need the extra time to get things done.

Option 2

• Basically, try to accomplish everything above (school, flying, comm. service) as a civilian.

• No age waiver

• No GI Bill

• No prior-enlisted experience

You may be able to tell which way I'm leaning towards. Friends and family are telling me don't enlist. On the boards I am reading don't enlist to go officer. Red flags should be going off in my head, but I still feel like it may be my best option to put myself in good light. I'm kind of viewing it like I could wait around working jobs I don't like and apply to OCS or I could go into the Navy working a job I will like (can any AW guys confirm this? ) and keep aplying for OCS.


OK, so this is my reasoning. Is it sound? I know there are a lot of guys with experience who can point me in the right direction and I really appreciate it. Thanks!

-Andrew

 

[bubbagump]

Nothing in life is ever certain. Do what makes the most sense to you -- it's your life.

Just understand that either way, you're not guaranteed a spot at OCS, and that if you enlist you'll have signed a contract that makes you government property for an extended period of time -- whether you like it or not. Commissioning from the enlisted side of the boat is a hard, long process, but it's not entirely unheard of.

 

[Hozer]

I don't know your location or contacts, but talk to some enlisted folks. It's a tough road and a stepping-stone perspective on AW can get you into trouble. You're a little older, you'll be in leadership roles quickly. It used to take 2 years to get fully qualified as an AW (Tactical SAR helo type). Good luck.

 

[Gus Gorilla]

I agree with Hozer on using AW in a stepping stone manner. I'm not implying your write up and approach has a flit attitude about becoming AW, but it's worth noting. As said before, neither route is guaranteeing an OCS slot. A large question I would be asking myself is, "If I cannot get an OCS spot would I be happy staying enlisted". If the answer is no or even maybe not then I wouldn't do it. You wouldn't want to be in a position feeling like you settled for that. Your colleagues will be proud of their jobs or rate and you would be "that guy" who may hold the same rate in low regard.
To not be completely negative in response I would also consider the following. Overall the military experience is a rewarding course and something to be proud of. If you feel the call to serve and a commission is not in the cards then choose something you would really like to do and go for it.

 

[hawkeyeHandler]

Don't know the ins and outs of applying for OCS, but what about going for Supply Officer instead of just puitting down Pilot or NFO? Your business degree would make you well-suited for it, and trying one more time with Suppo as an option may get you in the door.
I say this because if your ultimate goal is to try for flight school again, you are much more likely to get a lateral transfer after a couple of years (before the flight school age limit kicks in) of being a suppo than joining the pool of thousnads of enlisted guys, many of whom will have a lot more experience in the Navy and the time behind them to have proven themselves. I think that if you enlist you will have to wait longer to get your shot at re-applying for OCS.
Good luck

 

[robertdm27]

When it comes to being enlisted there are good and bad jobs if you do decide to go that way. I started my career in the Navy as an undesignated Airman on the Eisenhower and it was by far the worst year of my life. I did not like the Navy at that time but I applied to and was selected to be an Aircrew Rescue swimmer(AW) a year later. Once I started the training pipeline for this program I found a new love for the Navy, especially the aviation side. One sea tour and four years later I applied to and was selected for SNA through STA-21. I am not going to tell you that being enlisted is the best or the worst choice but its your choice. I am a strong advocate of it because enlisting provided me with the tools i needed to even be considered for a commission especially as a SNA. The only advice I have for you if you do decide to enlist is to pick a job like Aircrew, SEAL, EOD or something along those lines because being a ship guy or something is just not that pleasurable especially if you want to fly. The only thing about choosing one of these rates is that the training pipeline is long and tough. While you are going through it you will have a tough time applying to a commissioning program but it is possable. As an example I have about 6 pilots at my previous squadron that where all prior enlisted AW's. I feel it does give you a little bit of a leg up on some of the other guys due to the fact that you are an enlisted guy flying, at least it paid off for me and quite a few guys I know that are AW's. If i can answer any questions for you on the enlisted Aircrew side please let me know and good luck.

 

[EM1]

Regarding enlistment-Right now the Navy is being very selective on the enlisted side. The enlisted recruiters are done recruiting for this FY and have been for a while. You will still need a waiver for the DUI and "young and dumb" may need a better, more repentent explination. With recruiting as high as it is, there's no garuntee you'd even have the ability to get a AW spot, and the recruiter friends I have will NOT send you to MEPS to process as enlisted "job locked" (you have to want to be a sailor and willing to do what the Navy needs you to do-gone are the days of demanding a rating and getting it). So, if you do enlist, go with a list of air ratings that interest you, chances will be better for entry.

Honestly, under current enlistment condidtions I'm not sure I would have made it in the Navy, and more than likely not been given nuke. It's a function of the poor economy. You definately would not be the only degree holding person to enlist, and will be there with many enlisteds holding degrees.

To add to the enlisted "stepping stone" thing, that won't get you the write ups you need for Officer. You have to be ready to be enlisted for a long time (maybe your whole career) and if you want Officer you have to focus on being the best enlisted sailor you can possibly be. Very few get selected in a training pipeline for any Officer programs (except nukes), so you'll need to be willing to wait until you prove yourself in the fleet, many COs I've seen require 1 year on board to write positive endorsements for Officer.

Just my thoughts. Weigh your options carefully, and do what you think is best for you. I definately am greatful for the oppritunities I've had as enlsted and really wouldnt mind staying there, but I wouldnt reccomend it unless you are ready to do it.

 

[wlawr005]

AW is a tough job. As stated above, you might not even be selected for it, but if you are, here's some pointers:

1) The first two years of your career are physically and academically challenging. Only 1/3 of entrants graduate SAR school, and AWR "A" school is extremely tough. AWS "A" school is easier though, so give that some thought.

2) After NACCS, SAR, NATTC, and FRS, you will be on sea duty for up to 4 years. Being that you already have a degree, you won't have to worry about going school, but you will be flying your ass off getting your quals. The biggest problem is that it's tough to have a job that revolves around a flight schedule and still make it to classes, unless you are getting a Master's in basketweaving from Online Tech.

3) After you complete your first deployment, you'll probably have enough street credit to start talking your chain of command about putting in your OCS package, since that's the only commissioning source you will be eligible for. By that time, who knows? Maybe you're married, got kids, love being enlisted, who knows?

The point is that if you enlist, be prepared to devote yourself to your job. Only enlisted personnel who excel and go above and beyond get selected to be officers.

 

[eas7888]

I'm coming from the enlisted side of another branch, but what everyone here has said is absolutely true. If you do decide to enlist, you will be getting additional rank courtesy of your degree. This means more money, as well as increased responsibility. Upon enlisting, you really will have to prove yourself as a leader, and someone who is both technically and tactically proficient. If you can do those three things, you should be able to impress your non-commissioned and commissioned leadership enough to support you in becoming a commissioned officer.

If you do enlist, be sure to do something you'll enjoy, like everyone else has mentioned, you might be doing it longer than you plan on. One thing to remember, regardless of what others might say, non-commissioned officers run the military. You may find working as an NCO to be extremely rewarding. I know I have, and the only reason I am looking to advance is to do something related to my degree. I wish you the best of luck in pursuing a commission, and I urge you to look at other services as well. It can be MUCH easier to transfer your commission between services once you're actually wearing a bar or two on your uniform.

 

[OUSOONER]

Also, it's not "obvious" that the DUI is what nailed you...it can be a very limiting factor however. Just know that people with stellar stats and no convictions are getting turned away b/c of the climate right now. The DUI doesn't help but also you couldn't have picked a worse time to try and get in even if you were a 4.0 with a maxed out ASTB. We're putting NROTC grads into the reserves for up to a year...one of the primary commissioning sources. OCS just plugs the gaps for what the Academy and NROTC's cannot provide.

Keep these things in mind when you think you want to enlist just to go the Officer route...just find that the "force shaping" situation has not changed. Then you're just an unhappy sailor in a job you didn't want to do in the first place.

You have a degree from USC....I would use it and maybe find a really good job for a year and try again. I got in at 26 and commissioned 2 months before my 27th birthday, I cut it close so it's possible. The Navy realizes we do stupid shit when we're young. Perhaps holding down a legit big-boy job for a year or so all the while being a productive member of society (think Big Bros/Big Sis or something) may be what gets you in. They will see that you've submitted your Officer kit before and that you are showing personal improvement and determination.

I would give you a shot if you did all those things, so who's to say they wouldn't?

 

[NAVYBM2]

If they will take you, enlist!
My point of view may be a bit one sided though; I was enlisted myself.
My situation was very different from yours, but if I knew the things that I know now, I would have never gotten out and I would have gone after a commission from the enlisted ranks. Plus, in 2006 the NAVY introduced a new program that allows enlisted personnel to be commissioned as warrant officers and attend flight school. I don't know all the details on that but it is out there for you to consider.
If you enlist, remember that you will be around people that are living your dream everyday, just don't let that get to you.
I hope you have a thick skin and like to put in tons of extra effort that will help you stand out from the rest. For example, I had qualifications outside of my department before their own people were qualified, I was selected as sailor of the quarter while on mess-deck duty, and never had anything less then an EP(early promote) on my evals, eventually all of that got me promoted to 2nd class by the ship's captain. However, at that point I was 3 years into the service and still couldn't apply for a commission. I had some other issues (was not a citizen yet), but even if I was I still wouldn't have been able to beat the competition. I know a guy that got to the boat with a degree 2 years after me, 2 years later he was an intel officer. He would always come out and help us paint the side of the ship, stand watch on the bridge, and do after-hours stuff too , and he was a YN ( paper pusher). I am telling you all of this so you can plan on busting your ass for a few years before you even get close to some of the people you are going to be facing. It is simply a matter of time and effort on that side of the ranks, with effort almost always weighing in more than time. If you go in, don't loose site of your ultimate goal.
Good luck with your decision and stay motivated!!!!
BM2

 

[werdna]

AW is a tough job. As stated above, you might not even be selected for it, but if you are, here's some pointers:

1) The first two years of your career are physically and academically challenging. Only 1/3 of entrants graduate SAR school, and AWR "A" school is extremely tough. AWS "A" school is easier though, so give that some thought.

It's been a little difficult for me to find, but what is the difference between AWR and AWS?

I wish you the best of luck in pursuing a commission, and I urge you to look at other services as well. It can be MUCH easier to transfer your commission between services once you're actually wearing a bar or two on your uniform.

Thanks, I may need that luck I'm also looking into applying officer in other branches, but I am expecting the same results. Hoping for the best but planning for the worst...

The fact is that right now you don't have many points in your favor for an OCS package. I don't mean to put you down, but you have a low gpa in a business program, and the DUI is a major mark against you. In order to counteract the negative impact from your DUI, you have to provide evidence of leadership and maturity that you have developed since then, which you don't have in your package at all. Without something major in your favor, I don't really think you'll get into OCS.

It's going to be hard, but you have to ask yourself if you're going to get into OCS without the total package you'll have the opportunity to develop. In my opinion, you probably won't. Your really high OAR shows you have the potential though. Just remember your goals and keep working towards them, and you'll be there before you know it.

Thank you for your candor. I feel the same about reapplying to OCS. I've got a lot of work to do! But I am looking forward to it.

 

[twobecrazy]

It's been a little difficult for me to find, but what is the difference between AWR and AWS?

http://www.navycs.com/blogs/2009/08/12/navy-aircrewman-program

https://www.netc.navy.mil/vp30home/fe_special_program/MILPERSMAN%201220-010.pdf

Both of these have good info but the second one is outdated but can give you more info about the program.

 

[fc2spyguy]

I put enlist, however there is a huge caveat with that.

You have to realize that there is no guarantee, you probably do. Also, the enlisted road will be a tough one, especially if you chose a rate like AW. If the Navy is something you want to do, even if you never get the pilot slot that you want, then yes, I would enlist.

 

[S.O.B.]

Only 1/3 of entrants graduate SAR school.

If this is true things have changed a lot. I was an instructor there in the late 90's and we had guys showing up that could hardly swim; after some time in build up would make it through just fine.

So for this kid making the decision: I wouldn't let the difficulty of the schools keep you from enlisting, a good attitude will take you a long way. The other thing to consider is if you do decide to enlist your retirement clock would start right away. Probably doesn't seem like a big deal now but as you get older it will.