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Europe under extreme duress

Random8145

Registered User
Don't worry about Brett.. he likes to criticize people rather than their arguments.

At any rate, you're saying lots of stuff that has nothing to do with our discussion, and what is relevant isn't well thought out. Talking about how the Czech capability scared Hitler has nothing to do with why soldiers decide to stand and fight or not. Meanwhile, saying France tried to fight but was simply out fought is just wrong. Likewise, attributing Ukrainian soldiers willingness to fight to a "fierce national pride" implies that is something other Euro nations lack. The French have as much of that as the Ukrainians, and a much more capable military compared to their attacker, yet they folded in embarrassing fashion.
I didn't say national pride was the sole factor, just an important one My point on the Czechs was that they immediately were prepared to stand and fight against the Germans, not fold. The French in WWII had a willingness to fight, and they did try, but their military was not at all prepared for the then new combined arms method of warfare that the Germans employed. The Germans also took a risk and went through the Ardennes mountains which nobody thought they could possibly do because it would require them to stop and rest and eventually they'd be found out. Also the weather could be a risk. The Germans used crystal meth to stay awake and the weather held, so they drove straight through, never stopping, and emerged into relatively undefended territory.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Oh, you mean like experts?
Yep. You really had to go through all that to figure out "qualified authors" is just another way of saying experts? If I had said I read books/articles by experts, you could have just as easily asked how do I determine whether one is an expert or not? You are probably getting at how do I see those experts as authoritative while being more skeptical of other experts on say foreign policy, but I've already explained that multiple times.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
Yep. You really had to go through all that to figure out "qualified authors" is just another way of saying experts? If I had said I read books/articles by experts, you could have just as easily asked how do I determine whether one is an expert or not? You are probably getting at how do I see those experts as authoritative while being more skeptical of other experts on say foreign policy, but I've already explained that multiple times.
Don't feed the troll. He provides no content or contribution of any kind to the thread and then asks you where you got your info, without calling attention to anything you said that he believes is incorrect.. he's doing nothing but distracting from an otherwise good discussion. A moderator who only serves to detract from the useful content of the forum and derail discussions.
 

Mos

Well-Known Member
None
Hitler's generals were terrified of any major conflict with Czechoslovakia because of the capability and size of the Czech military and warned Hitler that the German military was not in any state to take on that country. The Czechs had been building up their military for two decades at that point. They had a very professional and capable general staff, ability for rapid mobilization, first-rate equipment (very good tanks, artillery, firearms, etc...) and a sizable force that was roughly comparable to Germany's when comparing to the German forces with actual capability, and mountainous terrain with lots of fortifications, whereas Germany was still in the building up process. The Czechs had the best arms factories in the world at the time as well, and the addition of the country to Hitler's empire helped greatly increase its strength.
The military staff's concern about Czech military power ≠ the Czechs stopping Hitler. In early '38, Hitler restructured the high command and solidified the de facto role for himself as the chief military decision-maker (however unqualified he may have been). While the Czech military situation affected the occupation plan in various ways, Hitler was determined to go to to war with Czechoslovakia over the continued objections of many of his generals, and his vote was the only one that mattered by that time. Some of the generals actually would've initiated a coup against Hitler if war with Czechoslovakia proceeded, but that doesn't really matter because Hitler didn't know of these plots.
Hitler himself later admitted, "When after Munich, we were in a position to examine Czechoslovak military strength from within, what we saw of it greatly disturbed us; we had run a serious danger. The plan prepared by the Czech generals was formidable. I now understand why my generals urged restraint.”
Hitler admitting after the fact the significance of the Czech military defense ≠ the Czechs stopping Hitler. His mindset prior to the Munich conference in September is what matters, not his mindset months later when he arrived in Prague. Scholars disagree on the exact motivations for Hitler shifting from a certain path of war with Czechoslovakia to agreeing to meet at Munich for a diplomatic solution, but intel on Czech defenses is just one of several factors, with Italy's flagging support of the operation and both French and British pressures appearing to be the more significant.
In addition, had Hitler attacked, Britain and France might well have attacked as well and German would almost certainly have been defeated.
The broader response from major powers that might have happened ≠ the Czechs stopping Hitler. First, the Czech mobilization ultimately had no bearing on this. Second, all leaders involved in the crisis made their decisions based not only what they knew but also on what they believed about their adversary (whether such beliefs are warranted or not). Hitler had intel on Czech defenses, but believed that the Wehrmacht would somehow prevail against it. Hitler knew that France and Britain would likely have made the war costly if not fatal for Germany if they had intervened, but believed that they wouldn't intervene. France and Britain should've known that the balance of power was in their favor, but believed that it wasn't, and in any case acted on the motivation that war with Germany was simply unacceptable for the interests at stake. Benes knew (or should've known) that Czechoslovakia stood a chance to face Germany alone, but his defense policy was so linked to his arrangement with France and Britain that he lost faith when they left him with the choice to cede Sudetenland or fight alone.

For more information:

I was responding to Mirage's post about what the Germans faced in conquering Europe and peoples standing up to aggressors.
It's obvious that you're responding to Mirage, but seems like you're generalizing what was a more specific conversation, i.e., military performance of countries against Germany during WWII. The Czech government diplomatically ceded their borderlands to the Germans in September '38, and the rest of itself in March '39, without any state of war or significant national resistance. Seems like apples and oranges to compare this with the other nations that Germany occupied thereafter.
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
We're a long way from the current situation in Europe. Perhaps a thread-split is in order here?
 
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Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
We're a long way from the current situation in Europe. Perhaps a thread-split is in order here?
Here’s a picture of a Russian hypersonic taking a nap in the Ukraine…back on track! I know, I know…it’s a gift.

7FF46116-3721-4444-97C7-564F0AC29171.jpeg

In other news I am impressed by the Ukrainian UAV attack on the Russian bomber base. A pin prick for sure, but I imagine it might have an impact on how Russia approaches the rest of the war.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Here’s a picture of a Russian hypersonic taking a nap in the Ukraine…back on track! I know, I know…it’s a gift.

View attachment 36983

In other news I am impressed by the Ukrainian UAV attack on the Russian bomber base. A pin prick for sure, but I imagine it might have an impact on how Russia approaches the rest of the war.

Highlights my earlier point about 'hypersonics'. That's a ballistic missile, either air or ground launched, and likely flies at hypersonic speed but not what many think of as a 'hypersonic weapon'.

She looks pretty intact, it would be really nice to get our hands on that.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
She looks pretty intact, it would be really nice to get our hands on that.

Maybe it fell off a truck?
My Uncle Carmine used to pick up all sorts of cool things that fell off the back of trucks. I can give him a call if ya like. He specializes in consumer electronics, but I am sure he'd take the job. C.O.D. Port of New Jersey ok?
 
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