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Europe under extreme duress

Mos

Well-Known Member
None
So the M4 became the Sherman, and the British variant I think the Lee.
The Lee was the British name for the American variant of the M3, not the M4. The M3 also came in a British-specific version, which they called the Grant, but the Brits ended up operating both variants because they needed any armor they could get their hands on through lend-lease.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
The Russian military was orders of magnitude larger and more capable than the Ukrainian military at the outset of the invasion, plus Russia had time to prepare it's forces. It's a minor miracle that Ukrainian forces stood their ground and chose to fight, let alone them being able to so successfully. Most forces would have thrown down their arms and ran (Iraq in first Gulf War for example)
Yeah, but it blundered by pretending to be the U.S. and not committing enough people to the operation.

175,000-200,000 troops is not enough to invade a country the size of Ukraine and conduct phase III/IV/V operations. We proved that in OIF and the Russians are re-learning that lesson with a more determined and capable enemy in the Ukraine war. The Russians needed a force at least 3x that large, probably 5x that large, to have a more positive outcome (ref: 3:1 thumbrule). I think Putin was arrogant enough to think that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine would act as a force multiplier, which in hindsight was a huge strategic blunder.

For reference, Operation Balbarossa had 2,800,000 axis troops committed (including 600,000 horses...which isn't relevant to anything except being a kinda funny concept in modern warfare).
 

Random8145

Registered User
You are only asking why it's a minor miracle because you have hindsight.

The Russian military was orders of magnitude larger and more capable than the Ukrainian military at the outset of the invasion, plus Russia had time to prepare it's forces. It's a minor miracle that Ukrainian forces stood their ground and chose to fight, let alone them being able to so successfully. Most forces would have thrown down their arms and ran (Iraq in first Gulf War for example)
Keep in mind though that Ukrainian forces had been preparing for quite awhile to be able to fight the Russians as well. The whole country had been prepping to fight a Russian invasion and the military had been getting training from NATO. I wouldn't use Gulf War I as a comparison because with that, the Iraqis knew the coalition forces weren't coming in to enslave them and place them under subjugation, so surrendering wasn't the danger that it would have been for the Ukrainians.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Well…not really. The “M” simply means “model” and when attached to a type or system is obvious (M1 rifle vs M1 tank) The British are no different using the term “Mark” or Mk for their systems. Thus we have the Mk AND number thereby giving us the No. 4 Mk. 1 rifle or Lee-Enfield (WWII pattern). The same was done for tanks giving us all manner of Mks to sort out. Still, both are better than the cumbersome German system such as "PzKpfw VI Ausf. E" to describe a tank.

The nicknames were simply to inspire the troops and give civilians something easy to latch onto when reading about the forces.
Yes, but M1 carbine rifle or M1 Garand rifle? M3 medium tank or M3 light tank? My understanding was that it was standard British practice to give names to their different weapons systems, for example their Churchill and Matilda tanks, and so to avoid the otherwise confusing American system which did not do this, they started giving the American systems names.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Yes, but M1 carbine rifle or M1 Garand rifle? M3 medium tank or M3 light tank? My understanding was that it was standard British practice to give names to their different weapons systems, for example their Churchill and Matilda tanks, and so to avoid the otherwise confusing American system which did not do this, they started giving the American systems names.
Easy…just read the actual name…United States Carbine, Caliber .30, M1 or U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1. Rifles and carbines are different. Same as the No.4 Mk.1 SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) - kind of obvious if you read the actual designation.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Still, both are better than the cumbersome German system such as "PzKpfw VI Ausf. E" to describe a tank.
That's actually the simplified version :) The German language seems to like to make words out of what would be whole sentences or phrases in English (although to a German I suppose they'd say English likes to make whole sentences out of what should be words), so they then shorten the name of the weapon system. So "PzKpfw VI Ausf. E" is actually shorthand for "Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausführung E." The German "Flak" gun was shorthand for "Fliegerabwehrkanone" or "Flugabwehrkanone." The "Stuka" dive bomber was short for "Sturzkampfflugzeug," the Stug assault gun was short for "Sturmgeschütz," and the Sd. Kfz. 9 "Famo" half-track was short for "Sonderkraftfahrzeug."
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
That's actually the simplified version :) The German language seems to like to make words out of what would be whole sentences or phrases in English (although to a German I suppose they'd say English likes to make whole sentences out of what should be words), so they then shorten the name of the weapon system. So "PzKpfw VI Ausf. E" is actually shorthand for "Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausführung E." The German "Flak" gun was shorthand for "Fliegerabwehrkanone" or "Flugabwehrkanone." The "Stuka" dive bomber was short for "Sturzkampfflugzeug," the Stug assault gun was short for "Sturmgeschütz," and the Sd. Kfz. 9 "Famo" half-track was short for "Sonderkraftfahrzeug."
Sure, but we should stay on topic. Russia, with a far larger field force, has failed to perform well in the Ukraine.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Sure, but we should stay on topic. Russia, with a far larger field force, has failed to perform well in the Ukraine.
I've read their logistics are really crappy. Like that they have fewer logistics trucks than the U.S. Army has despite having (had?) on paper a larger force. Also their trucks aren't like the ones the U.S. and the Brits use, which carry a container pallet which the truck then lifts off using a crane, so the truck lifts the pallet off, sets it down, then can go drive off to get another one while the troops unload the container. The old way was to have to unload the truck directly itself, so the truck would be stopped for some hours. This is how the Russian trucks are. The containers also allow for protection of the supplies from the elements and can also be used by the troops for protection if needed too, whereas the Russian supplies sit right out in wind/rain/snow/cold/mud.

The thing is, no matter what their force size, if the logistics portion of it is lousy, then the combat forces won't advance far. Remember the tanks were running out of fuel and the troops out of food, and when you're trying to advance into a dug-in, entrenched enemy that is determined to fight, you're just going to get your forces slaughtered.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
Keep in mind though that Ukrainian forces had been preparing for quite awhile to be able to fight the Russians as well. The whole country had been prepping to fight a Russian invasion and the military had been getting training from NATO. I wouldn't use Gulf War I as a comparison because with that, the Iraqis knew the coalition forces weren't coming in to enslave them and place them under subjugation, so surrendering wasn't the danger that it would have been for the Ukrainians.
You think the Iraqi rank and file soldier felt less afraid of being subjugated by the US, whom they were raised to hate and are different from them culturally in so many ways, than the Ukrainians with Russia? Ukrainian soldiers had only to look to Crimea to see what their future was if Russia won, and it wasn't slavery and subjugation. Add this to the fact that the Iraqi army was huge and fighting an adversary based on the other side of the globe, whereas Ukrainian soldiers surely felt way outgunned and were facing their neighbor, and I don't think your assertion about why Ukrainian soldiers held the line and Iraqi ones did not makes sense.

Again, to me it's a minor miracle the Ukrainian army held up. Bravo to them. It was sheer bravery on their end.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Well if Flash would let us know who wins the movie/old SAM shit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Yeah, I usually take the weekends off from here as I've got better shit to do but I was remiss not to check in for the results of my quiz.

S-125 (NATO SA-3 Goa)?
They look like SA-3s (or SA-26s). Change my mind.
Mix between the Buk missile system (SA-11 Gadfly in NATO designation) from the 1980s:
View attachment 36763

and the Vietnam era S-125 Neva (SA-3 Goa):
View attachment 36764

The answer I was going for was the SA-3/SA-26 so kudos to WhiskeySierra6 for getting both. The catch was getting SA-26, which is a much updated version of the S-125 (correctly noted as such by jmcquate, also named by the Russians as the Neva/Pechora) and externally largely indistinguishable from an SA-3 but internally very different and much newer (think C-130A and C-130J). The launcher is pretty distinctive and the only type I saw in the movie, if there were any 'Buk' SAM's I didn't catch them.

This is actually a pretty good example of the diversity of threat systems out there with the original SA-3 still in service along with the much improved SA-26 in addition to upgraded versions of the S-125 made by Cuba, Vietnam and Ukraine...who sold their upgraded version to Turkey. So if you were wondering why missile designations are all over the place, stuff like that is a big part of the reason.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Is/was Russia ever really a "near-peer" adversary though? "Near-peer" means they should be able to give NATO a run for its money. Now it seems clear that it was all just an image. If Putin had somehow been able to try attacking NATO, given all the massive preparation NATO has been engaged in since 2014 precisely for such a scenario, I think his forces would have been (conventionally) annihilated. NATO forces are probably the best prepared they've been in over a decade to fight off a Russian attack, maybe even longer.

While they have shown themselves to be woefully inept in many areas of military prowess on many levels they still have the capability to strike and cause significant harm not only to NATO but the United States itself with nuclear and conventional weapons.

Another thing people are forgetting is the massive role that Elon Musk's Starlink satellite system has been playing in allowing the Ukrainian forces to communicate and operate drones to help their artillery target Russian tanks and so forth. No one foresaw this and without it, the Ukrainians would be a lot more hampered in their communications. The combination of the satellite terminals being very lightweight, portable, and easy-to-use with the sheer number of satellites (thus making it impossible to shoot down) and SpaceX's thus far being able to fend off the constant Russian attempts at hacking the system, have made it a very important asset to Ukraine's military.

While Starlink is a great capability it is only one component in enabling the Ukrainians to keep up their fight against Russia.

Yeah, but it blundered by pretending to be the U.S. and not committing enough people to the operation.

175,000-200,000 troops is not enough to invade a country the size of Ukraine and conduct phase III/IV/V operations. We proved that in OIF and the Russians are re-learning that lesson with a more determined and capable enemy in the Ukraine war. The Russians needed a force at least 3x that large, probably 5x that large, to have a more positive outcome (ref: 3:1 thumbrule). I think Putin was arrogant enough to think that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine would act as a force multiplier, which in hindsight was a huge strategic blunder.

For reference, Operation Balbarossa had 2,800,000 axis troops committed (including 600,000 horses...which isn't relevant to anything except being a kinda funny concept in modern warfare).

Part of the Russian's problem is that they didn't/don't have that number of combat troops, as belied by the massive draft they undertook to replenish and reinforce their combat forces.

I've read their logistics are really crappy. Like that they have fewer logistics trucks than the U.S. Army has despite having (had?) on paper a larger force. Also their trucks aren't like the ones the U.S. and the Brits use, which carry a container pallet which the truck then lifts off using a crane, so the truck lifts the pallet off, sets it down, then can go drive off to get another one while the troops unload the container....

One thing that NATO, and the US in particular, has gotten really good at is standardization and the compliance with those standards across our military when it comes to a lot of things. It took some pretty hard lessons, from Grenada on, to get to the point we are at today but that has helped us and our allies immensely when it comes to fighting wars. Are we perfect? Not by any means, but the fact that almost all our folks can [usually] talk to each other and play using the same sheet of music, so to speak, helps A LOT.
 

Random8145

Registered User
You think the Iraqi rank and file soldier felt less afraid of being subjugated by the US, whom they were raised to hate and are different from them culturally in so many ways, than the Ukrainians with Russia? Ukrainian soldiers had only to look to Crimea to see what their future was if Russia won, and it wasn't slavery and subjugation.
The Ukrainians would have been forced to live under a pro-Russian regime with all that that entails. Any freedoms in terms of criticizing such, and anything Western-style, would have been prohibited.
Add this to the fact that the Iraqi army was huge and fighting an adversary based on the other side of the globe, whereas Ukrainian soldiers surely felt way outgunned and were facing their neighbor, and I don't think your assertion about why Ukrainian soldiers held the line and Iraqi ones did not makes sense.

Again, to me it's a minor miracle the Ukrainian army held up. Bravo to them. It was sheer bravery on their end.
Iraq was never really a "country" in the sense of having any national sense of nationhood though, and I don't think those troops really believed the U.S. would subjugate them in spite of Saddam's propaganda. They also knew their own level of actual training and that the U.S. and coalition forces were likely far better trained and equipped. Whereas the Ukrainian troops had received training from NATO and very much have a national sense of identity, a sense of Ukrainian nationhood, and do not want to be subjugated by Russia.
 

Random8145

Registered User
While Starlink is a great capability it is only one component in enabling the Ukrainians to keep up their fight against Russia.
From what I've read, it's really been a lifesaver for the Ukrainian military.
One thing that NATO, and the US in particular, has gotten really good at is standardization and the compliance with those standards across our military when it comes to a lot of things. It took some pretty hard lessons, from Grenada on, to get to the point we are at today but that has helped us and our allies immensely when it comes to fighting wars. Are we perfect? Not by any means, but the fact that almost all our folks can [usually] talk to each other and play using the same sheet of music, so to speak, helps A LOT.
I think also because NATO's strongest military members are the U.S. and U.K., two nations that historically have HAD to be good at logistics in order to fight anywhere in the world.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Yeah, gonna go ahead and once again ask you to source that claim.

It makes perfect sense to say that Afghanistan was/is a tribal country with no sense of national identity, but I don't think the same rings true for Iraq.
I don't have a specific source, but that is my understanding of Iraq based on its history. It was created by the British unifying multiple provinces. The country consists of multiple religious and ethnic groups that don't like each other and was ruled by military strongman throughout most of its history. Once the strongman in charge (Saddam) was toppled, the country quickly descended into chaos. The different groups started clashing and fighting with one another creating a lot of violence. So there wasn't really a national sense of being an "Iraqi," but more of being say a Sunni or a Shi'ite or a Kurd or whatnot within the country called "Iraq" and living under Saddam's oppressive Sunni regime.
 
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