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Do Sailors these days view the topic of suicide differently? - TG2 thread split

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
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In HS my son had a lacrosse teammate he was close to hang himself in his back yard. The team was founded by a student how led them to a championship in its second year, and then he killed himself. There was a memorial rock for him at the field. The team gathered around it before every game.

After my son's friend died the school made a typical response ( they had a couple other suicides ). Encouraged everyone to talk about it. Had a big memorial in the auditorium. Kids came on stage and spoke fondly about him who hadn't ever spoken to him. When there was talk about another memorial monument the coach and other parents finally put a stop to it all.

These days with fame, attention and affirmation driving so many of our youth, our reaction to a youth suicide can make it look almost attractive. Whatever leads kids to kill themselves is often complex. But like the mall shooter looking for fame, I think we should not lionize youth who commit suicide. Counseling for survivors, especially fellow youth, should be in private, not via public group displays.

Just my opinion based personal observation and discussion with my sister, a retired HS counselor who went through 6-8 student body suicides.
We lionize people who die. That’s not a particularly new thing.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
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Super Moderator
Contributor
We lionize people who die. That’s not a particularly new thing.
Most times, yes. But for private people it is not done in public. It is reserved for funerals and family reunions. I am certain this response is a new thing in the case of youth suicide. And given the manner of death and the public health interest I don't believe it is helpful in the case of youth suicide.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
I'm solidly Gen X, whom everyone has apparently forgotten about. We're your helicopter parents... sorry for overreacting, Ya'll. We're hopelessly damaged.

My mom is an early boomer, and my dad is the other forgotten one (silent?). Glad I didn't have the helicoptering.....
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
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Super Moderator
Contributor
In HS my son had a lacrosse teammate he was close to hang himself in his back yard. The team was founded by a student how led them to a championship in its second year, and then he killed himself. There was a memorial rock for him at the field. The team gathered around it before every game.

After my son's friend died the school made a typical response ( they had a couple other suicides ). Encouraged everyone to talk about it. Had a big memorial in the auditorium. Kids came on stage and spoke fondly about him who hadn't ever spoken to him. When there was talk about another memorial monument the coach and other parents finally put a stop to it all.

These days with fame, attention and affirmation driving so many of our youth, our reaction to a youth suicide can make it look almost attractive. Whatever leads kids to kill themselves is often complex. But like the mall shooter looking for fame, I think we should not lionize youth who commit suicide. Counseling for survivors, especially fellow youth, should be in private, not via public group displays.

Just my opinion based personal observation and discussion with my sister, a retired HS counselor who went through 6-8 student body suicides.
What strikes me about this post is something I've heard about a spike in teen suicides back in the 1980s or 1990s. Supposedly (though I can't find original reporting) the National Institute of Mental Health started publishing guidelines for the news media to report on suicides, so as not to trigger a copycat effect. And I'm wondering how much of this is going down the same path.

Like you said regarding spree shooters, it seems we're creating a cultural script where some badly-adjusted kid going through a severe adolescent crisis is basically getting a playbook of how to "get back," "get theirs," call it what you will. Be that either by violence against themselves or other people. Which is the complete opposite of "helpful" and is inviting copycat behavior.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
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Super Moderator
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What strikes me about this post is something I've heard about a spike in teen suicides back in the 1980s or 1990s. Supposedly (though I can't find original reporting) the National Institute of Mental Health started publishing guidelines for the news media to report on suicides, so as not to trigger a copycat effect. And I'm wondering how much of this is going down the same path.

Like you said regarding spree shooters, it seems we're creating a cultural script where some badly-adjusted kid going through a severe adolescent crisis is basically getting a playbook of how to "get back," "get theirs," call it what you will. Be that either by violence against themselves or other people. Which is the complete opposite of "helpful" and is inviting copycat behavior.
"Cultural script" (playbook). I like that. Interesting thing about the particular incident I described. The coach had been an at risk youth adventure therapy counselor, or whatever you would call them. You know, take kids out in the woods or on sail boats, cut them off from social media, teach team work, mutual respect, etc. Point being, he had training and experience with troubled youth. He was not comfortable with the big auditorium remembrance. When the topic of a memorial for the field came up the other parents tended to wait and see what the family wanted. But the coach drew the line there, stepped up and said no, before the family could voice support for it. Most of the rest of the parents then said no.

The young man left a note, but the family never shared it. He seemed fine to all casual observers and even to my son, who knew him pretty well. All we know is that he had been cut from the football team (he wasn't a big kid, a lax goalie) and was having girl friend problems. Unfortunately, less than that sometimes results in a youth suicide these days.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Like you said regarding spree shooters, it seems we're creating a cultural script where some badly-adjusted kid going through a severe adolescent crisis is basically getting a playbook of how to "get back," "get theirs," call it what you will. Be that either by violence against themselves or other people. Which is the complete opposite of "helpful" and is inviting copycat behavior.
"Cultural script" (playbook). I like that. Interesting thing about the particular incident I described. He seemed fine to all casual observers and even to my son, who knew him pretty well. All we know is that he had been cut from the football team (he wasn't a big kid, a lax goalie) and was having girl friend problems. Unfortunately, less than that sometimes results in a youth suicide these days.
Kind of my point in a way. We assume suicide is always a product of mental health issues, but what if it isn't? What if they were convinced suicide was normal or a viable form of retribution? The slew of senior German officers who killed themselves in the early to mid 20th century as a result of military losses weren't considered mentally ill, it was the thing they were supposed to do. I don't think we're near that as a society, but I do think the act is more normalized than it was 10, 20, 30 years ago.
 
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ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
I think that there are two factors at play:

1. Yard periods require sailors to live in inhumane conditions, and it's been like that for at least 20 years. I personally attempted to sleep in 90 degree heat while chillwater was tagged out in an avail, but everyone had to stay onboard for firefighting response. Imagine doing that every 3-4 days. I had a DH file an IG about poor shipyard living conditions around 10 years ago and it torpedoed his career despite being #1 in the squadron. The Big Navy in a budget constrained environment has little appetite to spend money on habitability and hotel services when 'everyone else did it, why can't you?'

2. Kids today talk about suicide as a normal coping mechanism. The 19 year old E3 you have has likely already vocalized suicide for adversity at some point in middle/high school and assured by his friends that it's a viable course of action to end suffering and impose some kind of retribution. It's not a matter of 'resiliency' in terms of being ill equipped to overcome challenges, but that the individual's moral compass considers suicide a rational option to stick it to the man. I think we're lagging behind on this front.
CNO is deaf and blind on this subject - you *cannot* use sailors as basic low skilled commodity industrial labor - this is 180 degrees opposite of what recruiters promise young recruits. Navy is dead last in enlisted recruiting right now and only getting worse. This needs to be fixed asap. CNO keeps parroting the myth of "crew ownership" - BS!!!
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
CNO is deaf and blind on this subject - you *cannot* use sailors as basic low skilled commodity industrial labor - this is 180 degrees opposite of what recruiters promise young recruits. Navy is dead last in enlisted recruiting right now and only getting worse. This needs to be fixed asap. CNO keeps parroting the myth of "crew ownership" - BS!!!
Senior leadership is holding Sailors accountable for poor shipyard worker safety practices and craftsmanship because they hold no power over civilians who under deliver, and the slew of 19-25 year old Sailors are tired of repeatedly correcting people 30-40 years old and seeing no accountability. Then add a dose of being spoken to/reprimanded/removed from watch for not correcting a bubba. Also every shipyard thinks that Sailors are just ready available assets to do work without warning and it takes a herculean effort at the DH and above level to make sure that plans and the exact manpower and tasks needed are communicated to the ship in advance.

When the Miami fire happened, NCIS investigated the duty section for a potential crime because they potentially didn't spot a worker doing hot work improperly. Yard employees? Better show probable cause or else they're all off limits for questioning. Good thing the asshole did his crime a second time and got caught which took the pressure off the crew.
 
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nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
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CNO is deaf and blind on this subject - you *cannot* use sailors as basic low skilled commodity industrial labor - this is 180 degrees opposite of what recruiters promise young recruits.
"Sweepers, sweepers, man your brooms. Give the ship a clean sweep down forward, midships, and aft. Sweep down all lower decks, ladderwells, and passageways. Hold all trash and garbage on station. Sweepers." I'm shocked, shocked to find out that recruiters have been exaggerating how cool active duty can be!

I'm not opposed to modifying how Big Navy does yard periods, but this isn't the argument to make. Junior enlisted, especially undesignated ones, are going to be chipping paint, swabbing decks, cleaning shitters, and cranking in the galley for as long as there's a Navy.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
"Sweepers, sweepers, man your brooms. Give the ship a clean sweep down forward, midships, and aft. Sweep down all lower decks, ladderwells, and passageways. Hold all trash and garbage on station. Sweepers." I'm shocked, shocked to find out that recruiters have been exaggerating how cool active duty can be!
There's a grand canyon sized chasm between yard periods and having sweepers in the plan of the week along with all the other stuff a Sailor actually signed up to do.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
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There's a grand canyon sized chasm between yard periods and having sweepers in the plan of the week along with all the other stuff a Sailor actually signed up to do.
Sigh . . . Яeading Is Fundamental, dude. I said there's room to modify yard periods. I also said that the argument being made wasn't the way to address it, because some level of drudgery is expected of junior enlisted, and if the argument to senior leadership is "my recruiter stretched the truth," the answer is going to be "fuck off, so did everyone's."
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
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For all the talk about suicide and young sailors a look at the actual stats shows younger folks (24 and younger) have suicide rates lower than every other age group.

From my observation at the Navy Ops Center reviewing all the OPREP's that included all suicides and suicide attempts the overwhelming majority at the time were very young sailors that were starting out at their first permanent duty stations and after their initial training. I think that is not unusual or new, as that has long been a critical point for many sailors for a very long time. What was new was the focus on the issue, which is no longer buried or ignored. Which brings me to another point already discussed...

There is a lot less shame and much more awareness when talking about suicide nowadays and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Like domestic violence and child abuse not too long ago it was something to be swept under the rug and just not discussed, buried and obfuscated if it did happen and often ignored if folks sought help.
 

PhrogLoop

Adulting is hard
pilot
…There is a lot less shame and much more awareness when talking about suicide nowadays and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Like domestic violence and child abuse not too long ago it was something to be swept under the rug and just not discussed, buried and obfuscated if it did happen and often ignored if folks sought help.
100%. This is true of all destructive behaviors, and a welcome trend. As proud as we are of our Service(s), we have to recognize that many of our people are hurting and we owe them our support on and off duty. I work at a huge tech company - we’re just realizing that responsibility to our people and investing accordingly. I think it’s kind of awesome that the military is providing an example here for industry to follow.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Sigh . . . Яeading Is Fundamental, dude. I said there's room to modify yard periods. I also said that the argument being made wasn't the way to address it, because some level of drudgery is expected of junior enlisted, and if the argument to senior leadership is "my recruiter stretched the truth," the answer is going to be "fuck off, so did everyone's."
I can read just fine, thank you. You're standing up a strawman. Ok, recruiters don't talk about sweepers. We're not talking about sometimes doing a task that wasn't advertised during recruitment; we're talking about never doing the task that one supposedly signed up to do. That's well beyond 'stretching the truth,' and that kind of dismissive attitude is part of the problem.
 
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