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Disassociated tour for aviators on aircraft carriers/gators

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Yes, thanks, but what about LDO SWO nukes, whose top assignment, AFAIK, is the carrier CHENG?

LDO SWO nukes can be a CHENG on a CVN, last I heard half are LDO SWO nukes the other half are SWO EDO, besides that you don't see a LDO SWO nuke CDR or higher on a CVN, they also hold billets such as a technical assistant (Ensign to LT), or Reactor Mechanical assistant (LCDR)

LDO SWO nukes not only come from the surface fleet but also the submarine fleet as except in rare circumstances a LDO will not serve on a Submarine.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
To answer an earlier point, yes, nuke SWOs command conventional ships as part of their careers. Last ship I cruised on was a frigate with a nuke captain. Most of her career had been within the nuke world (i.e., Reactor divs, power school, etc).

SWO nukes spend a surprisingly little amount of time as nukes. I have rounded numbers for ease of math and put in ranks for OP)

enter USN
2 years as SWO on non nuke ship (Ensign)
1 year various nuke schools (LTJG)
2 years on CVN (LTJG/LT)
2 years random shore duty, most are non nuke, some get nuke training teams (LT)
1 year department head on non nuke ship (LT)
2 year tour as principal assistant on CVN (LCDR)
2 year shore duty most non nuke, some are nuke related (LCDR)
add in a few years here for other non nuke items.
3 years as XO/CO non nuke ship (CDR)
2 years as Reactor Officer (CDR/CAPT) (arrive as RO about 18 year point)

basically out of 20 years they will spend about 7-10 years on an operational reactor, a sub officer will spend much more time operating reactors.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Not commissioned
WO1 is not a commissioned officer. CWO2 and above are.

The Navy don't use WO1.

From a DOD web page: http://www.defense.gov/About-DoD/Insignias/Officers

Warrant officers hold warrants from their service secretary and are specialists and experts in certain military technologies or capabilities. The lowest ranking warrant officers serve under a warrant, but they receive commissions from the president upon promotion to chief warrant officer 2. These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists. There are no warrant officers in the Air Force.
 

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
or Reactor Mechanical assistant (LCDR)

Thanks a lot. Again, impossible in Russian Navy. As we have only four nuclear cruisers (Kirov class) and only one of them is operational (Peter the Great) there is a little amount of surface nukes in Russian Navy and almost half of them were fooled into surface service by promisess that their next ship will be the nuclear-powered carrier (the ship next to Kuznetsov, a carrier supposed to have the name Ulyanovsk, had to be the nuclear-powered). At the Kirov-class there are eight nuke officers, four on each reactor: so-called Reactor Remote Control Division Officer (КГДУ - командир группы дистанционного управления, in-Russian), a Capt-Lt (Lt in USN) billet, and three on-watch Engineers under him (Jigs). So they have a three-watches shift (4/8 hours) as prescribed. A personnell troubles occured every summer when some of those guys were on vacation - there were the cases the ships went to sea with only one Div and three Engineers for united watch schedule for both reactors, then they have 6/6 watches. People around the world supposed the KN-3 reactors of the Kirovs were not mighty enough and so the designers added two regular steam boilers to achieve the designed 34 knot of full speed ahead. No, this is false. When the Kirov herself was on "afterburner" trying to save the crew of SSN K-278 in Apr 1989 and making 35.3 knots, she was purely on nuclear power. That speed, by the way, caused the operational damage to the port main reducing gear (this is two-shafts design) but the reactors and turbines were running smooth and good. That add steam boilers were designed to provide the ship with some speed and maneuverability to get out of port and hit on the course to intercept some USN CVN while the nukes are firing their "barbeque spot" from the cold status as the reactors were always ordered to shut down while the ship was moored. That operation (reactor start-up) claimed 48 hours in the regular mode, 32 in fast mode and 8 hours in minimal safety mode. Yet those 8 hours the ship could be en-route using her boilers, roughly at 14 knots at best.


basically out of 20 years they will spend about 7-10 years on an operational reactor, a sub officer will spend much more time operating reactors.

Not the case in Russia. If nuke officer went ashore, this is for good. And in Russian Navy an officer has not the charge to serve 20 calendar years to possess the minimal pension (40% from salary). He should reach his 20 "service" years, but service year is not equal to the calendar one. All nuclear submarine officers here while on the submarine billets have twin ratio, i.e. each calendar year is accounted as two service years. Thus, to fill the 20 years of pension threshold one can spend only 7.5 years on nuke submarine billets, no matter which division or dept. So we have 5 years of Naval College (1:1 ratio, year per year) and 7.5*2=15 service years (1:2, a year per two), total sum is 20 service years and warranted pension, while actual time of active duty is only 12.5 years. One of my classmates got that pension without single deployment - the boats he served on were either below operational readiness or in repair at the shipyard, but as he was on the live billets on those boats, he humbly possessed a life-long pension. And he had no underwater trip longer than 5 days, a total underwater time about three months for all 7.5 years. Another my classmate who resigned after 5 obligatory years and now is civilian salesman, spent 3.3 years of those 5 underwater, but as he resigned before the pension threshold, he have a zero roubles from military for his further life. Military is unfair...

WO1 is not a commissioned officer. CWO2 and above are.

Thanks again. This is news for me. The German Navy has rough equivalent - so-called Stabs-Kapitan-Lt. A person from the enlisted without degree who pass the officer exams. That is the max possible rank for such commissioned officers. No regular naval commissioned officer can obtain this rank - they go to Korvettenkapitan directly from Kapitan-Lt. This is strictly for those Mustangs. Sleeve stripes likewise the USN LtCdr with additional narrow band - i.e. two narrow tracks between two wider.
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
OK then, in 1982 now-retired ADM Stavridis, who then was SWO LT, have been openly ready to resign his commission immediately after his tour in the steaming guts of USS Forrestal (some boiler divisional officer), and he wrote the article in Proceedings in which advocated the SWO-billet for CV\CVN XO. Now the XO of the amphib gator, say LHA, quite can be the SWO Cdr\Capt - in 1982 it was purely aviation billet. Things are changing. What do you think, can it get so far that this old 1982 recommendation will become the reality of CVN ship's company?
I was unaware that SWOs were not traditionally in XO positions on carriers. It would be great to see a SWO be the XO of a carrier, assuming the CAPT is an aviator. I think they could be very successful. What is the use of NPS, NWC, ACSC, NDU, etc. teaching LTs/LCDRs about joint military doctrine if we can't expect an O-5 SWO to know how to employ airpower effectively? Sure, there will be a learning curve...but no more of one than an NA or NFO learning about propulsion systems.
 
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Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
I was unaware that SWOs were not traditionally in XO positions on carriers. It would be great to see a SWO be the XO of a carrier, assuming the CAPT is an aviator. I think they could be very successful. What is the use of NPS, NWC, ACSC, NDU, etc. teaching LTs/LCDRs about joint military doctrine if we can't expect an O-5 SWO to know how to employ airpower effectively? Sure, there will be a learning curve...but no more of one than an NA or NFO learning about propulsion systems.

Oh boy. There's a can of worms if ever I've seen one....
 

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
.but no more of one than an NA or NFO learning about propulsion systems.

Ok, thanks. But it seems to be that much larger amount of arrogance stems from this, actually this, the most brilliant part of naval officer corps - the NA (less about this concerning NFO). Let me cite just one sentence from the book of ADM James L. Holloway III: "Aircraft carriers at War", that line is concerning his tenure as the prospective CO of CVN-65 Enterprise, when Mr. Rickover inserted his long nose in the carriers' powerplant matter (as the word "nuclear" arose there), i.e. the Essex-class carriers were on duty yet. This quotation is a verbal reply of one of the unnamed CV CO in 1960s as to what knowledge he as aviator and carrier CO had possessed about what is happening below the hangar deck: “As a carrier skipper, I don’t care what kind of powerplant the ship has. It could be propelled by rubber bands, just so long as when I call for full power, I get it. That is the Chief Engineer’s job.” That officer was a fighter pilot, an ace from WWII and Korea.
Please imagine definitely these words told by the nuclear submarine's CO, or even guided missile cruiser's skipper.
Maybe this is an opinion of a single-placed aviator, while the pilot from the crewed crowd will be - perhaps - more detailed and less arrogant. There are tons of books from the Intruder's cockpit, and I didn't find something like: "Hey, B/N, I don't care how your radar is working, maybe there is a kind of Disney camera within this box, it is all your problem..."
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
“As a carrier skipper, I don’t care what kind of powerplant the ship has. It could be propelled by rubber bands, just so long as when I call for full power, I get it. That is the Chief Engineer’s job.”
In a sense, this is the direction the entire U.S. military has been moving for decades. Each part of the warfighting machine has a specialized role. As leaders are promoted to higher ranks, they must develop and employ a broader understanding of warfare operations and strategy behind and beyond their one community.

I understand why the XO on a CVN is typically an NA or NFO: look at the demographics of the URL officers on board, and see which URL community has the most. There may be a few non-aviation URL officers on a carrier at any time... but there are dozens of naval aviators, and aviators need an XO who will be equal parts mentor, boss, and ship-caretaker. That relationship is easier if the XO is an aviator.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Nothing to do with mentorship, more like law. And there are a decent number of non aviators on board as part of ships company.
 

Duc'-guy25

Well-Known Member
pilot
I had visited the USS Mount Whitney. As it turned out, the CO of the ship was aviator on his "deep draft". On this ship at least several crewmembers are not uniformed military, the young lady on the bridge, a Quartermaster, was civilian.

Just FYI, in the USN Command Ships, tenders, JHSV's, and all combat support ships are operated by civilian mariners employed by the Navy. Theres a few hybrids (such as Mt Whitney and the ASFB's) that have an URL Officer commanding, but the deck and engineering departments are all Merchant Mariners.
 

Max the Mad Russian

Hands off Ukraine! Feet too
That relationship is easier if the XO is an aviator.

That's understandable enough, for sure. Time and again it makes me wonder, though, how the aviators can cope with such a huge and, eventually, surface ship, from the standpoint of a risk theory. I have a pair of suppositions, and they are:

1. Special training, mandatory for all the NAs and NFOs assigned to ship's company, as it have been noted in this thread by Mr. Flash earlier. I'm OK with it, but the time frame supposed for this training to be sufficient enough seems to be about a year for command posts and at least six months for some department heads. I surmise these numbers by my own experience as a staff officer in Russian Navy - to be appointed as the Dept Head of a surface ship which is commanded by the Captain (carrier, cruiser, DDG), the officer should complete a year of training in special installation chosen by his designator: same for the staff officer of the frigate brigade (roughly similar to DesDiv in USN), for example. As Dept Head of the Russian cruiser is the senior OOD by his main watch, the Communication Officer of the cruiser (Dept Head 4) who spent his previous time on duty mostly in the radio rooms or op center of the ship should possess much more knowledges and skills to run the ship properly while SOOD (good CO and XO can pay almost no attention to the good SOOD actions - all will be done brilliantly). This is very rough analogy but it's the most I can draw from what I know. Same things - NA or NFO has to learn something new to run the carrier. The problem is that if he doesn't know or forget something important, there should be someone who knows and can remind it. And if that is concerning the aviation realm, carrier CO has in his hand 15 or so NA/NFO Commanders who can and have to support him. But in the seamanship or, worse, engineering realms - or, the worst, damage control and fire protection one - he has only one or two SWO Cdrs/LCdrs. That is the point where the speculative (uncertain) risk of the carrier survivability becomes the straight one, a spot of the thinnest ice on the river;
2. Chiefs. The only kind of a personnell of the carrier ship's company who are not in hurry to change the assignment (divs, depts, ships, fleets etc) every couple of years are Chiefs. And maybe Chief Warrants. They are free from the flying tasks, and they, as I can imagine, form the skeleton's bones that allows the carrier to be alive and feel good. With the good Chiefs the carrier CO and most part of his officers can come from NASA, for example - an aviation installation, too - and all will be fine, either;-)


Theres a few hybrids (such as Mt Whitney and the ASFB's) that have an URL Officer commanding, but the deck and engineering departments are all Merchant Mariners.

Same thing here. On the fleet oilers or T-AKE equivalent, the CO and XO are Navy officers, all the other are civilian mariners. I was just amazed by the fact that the Command Ship (that should have the highest security clearance for all the crewmembers, in Russian habit) is populated by merchant mariners, an opposite side of James Bond image. Don't pay an attention, it's just common Russian mental legacy after decades of total control (yet not finished while notably softer now).
 
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