DH school timing

[PenguinGal]

While this might be a better question for SB given that a similar topic was discussed a few months ago, I want to solicit the thoughts and opinions of the AW community as I know there are some SWOs among the crowd.

My husband is currently about 6 months into his post-DivO shore duty. He is set to graduate NPS in June 2015 but won't hit his 7.5 year mark and signal to start DH school until June of 2016. (He commissioned DEC08) While SB has pretty much concluded that it is a REALLY bad idea to start DH school after the 7.5 year mark, is it a good/bad/neutral action to start DH school almost a fully year early? He is already in discussion with his detailers about getting his orders cut this way. As his wife I am curious as to how this will/will not affect the timing for the rest of his career.

My instinct is saying that it is a good thing. The main argument against starting late is that by the time one is in zone for O4, there might not be an observed FITREP as a DH. Starting early would mean that he would have time for not only the anticipated observed FITREPS but perhaps even an extra one or two to strengthen his package for his first look.

Does anyone have any thoughts or insight? Thanks!

 

[BigRed389]

While this might be a better question for SB given that a similar topic was discussed a few months ago, I want to solicit the thoughts and opinions of the AW community as I know there are some SWOs among the crowd.

My husband is currently about 6 months into his post-DivO shore duty. He is set to graduate NPS in June 2015 but won't hit his 7.5 year mark and signal to start DH school until June of 2016. (He commissioned DEC08) While SB has pretty much concluded that it is a REALLY bad idea to start DH school after the 7.5 year mark, is it a good/bad/neutral action to start DH school almost a fully year early? He is already in discussion with his detailers about getting his orders cut this way. As his wife I am curious as to how this will/will not affect the timing for the rest of his career.

My instinct is saying that it is a good thing. The main argument against starting late is that by the time one is in zone for O4, there might not be an observed FITREP as a DH. Starting early would mean that he would have time for not only the anticipated observed FITREPS but perhaps even an extra one or two to strengthen his package for his first look.

Does anyone have any thoughts or insight? Thanks!

Yeah, I ran this one by my old CO, and he ran it by PERS for a sanity check.

Conclusion:
Good: For all the points already addressed, especially since SWO selection to O-4 isn't 95% anymore. Doing well as a DH is still considered the go/no-go for O-4. Everyone still says the JO shore tour doesn't matter.
Bad: For personal reasons, specifically depending on how much time you think you need away from "SWO" before diving back in.
Unknowns: How the overmanning of DH's will affect DH rotations schedules in the future. Extra time on the back end of DH tours waiting XO/CO milestone and how that plays out. You would think good...but who knows.

 

[PenguinGal]

Thank you BigRed! That answers a lot of my questions.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Maybe this is community dependent, but I commissioned almost a year before your husband, and I haven't even thought of anything related to being a DH. Pretty sure my first look is in like '17/'18, but I don't even know if that is true. I don't even have an official photograph....

edit: nevermind, I guess "DH" is an LT thing in his world maybe

 

[PenguinGal]

[...] I guess "DH" is an LT thing in his world maybe

Definitely a difference in community! He screened for DH before he went on shore duty and traditional path (to the best of my knowledge) has the SWO as a DH as a LT and then puts on LCDR at some point during the second tour.

It is kind of fun to see the differences between communities here on AW. I didn't realize that aviation designators didn't do their DH tours until so far in their careers!

 

[zippy]

Definitely a difference in community! He screened for DH before he went on shore duty and traditional path (to the best of my knowledge) has the SWO as a DH as a LT and then puts on LCDR at some point during the second tour.

It is kind of fun to see the differences between communities here on AW. I didn't realize that aviation designators didn't do their DH tours until so far in their careers!

Another plus side to going to DH school a year early... right now the SWO detailers are having a problem managing their DH slates. Often times its changed at least once prior to arriving to the ship, including switching classes of ships and changing baselines (and often results in another trip to Dahlgren for CSO school). If hes starting school early and there is a hangup, he won't be hosed if he gets an orders change that extends his time in the training tracts for DH.

 

[Pags]

Definitely a difference in community! He screened for DH before he went on shore duty and traditional path (to the best of my knowledge) has the SWO as a DH as a LT and then puts on LCDR at some point during the second tour.

It is kind of fun to see the differences between communities here on AW. I didn't realize that aviation designators didn't do their DH tours until so far in their careers!

SWOs do two DH tours, but they're billeted for a specific job. Aviators do one DH tour, but will switch jobs during that tour to roles of increased responsibility.

SWOs have much longer shore duty times than Aviators do between their sea tours.

You could probably argue that the dissassocoated tour is an aviators first DH tour.

 

[BigRed389]

SWOs do two DH tours, but they're billeted for a specific job. Aviators do one DH tour, but will switch jobs during that tour to roles of increased responsibility.

SWOs have much longer shore duty times than Aviators do between their sea tours.

You could probably argue that the dissassocoated tour is an aviators first DH tour.

YMMV.

 

[Pags]

YMMV.

It seems that most of the SWOs I've worked and lived with have all had two shore duties for about 5yrs of shore duty time between their JO sea tours and DH tours. Many of these are what an aviator would consider cake / non-production tours as well; NPS, NROTC instructor, SWOS instructor, etc. Aviators get ~33mo of shore duty between sea duties. Granted, they may also have 2-3yrs of "shore" duty during flight school, so in the grand scheme of things it all comes out in the wash.

This isn't meant to start a "who's better battle", but, my observation is that the majority of important/big SWO JO jobs are sea billets. There doesn't seem to be the SWO equivalent of FRS Instructor, WTI, or Golden path jobs that aviators have at the JO level. Now, post DH the SWOs can look forward to the same "path to command" jobs that include DC and Joint tours on the list.

 

[azguy]

OP --

To echo other replies, no career implications for rolling to DH school @ 6.5 YCS. 7.5 is the "latest," 6.5 isn't "early" per se...the obvious downside is that he is shortchanging himself 12 extra months of a follow-on cushy shore duty. I'm not up to speed on what boondoggles the NPS crowd is running right now, but I'm sure he can find out easily...don't count on his detailer offering them up on a silver platter.

Obviously, as a married couple, there may (or may not) be some family planning consideration to do as well, which may influence his decision on what to do.

 

[Spekkio]

It seems that most of the SWOs I've worked and lived with have all had two shore duties for about 5yrs of shore duty time between their JO sea tours and DH tours.

You sure? Because that would put them hitting DH school at 8.5 ycs minimum.

It sounds like the SWO gate is the same as hours for the same reason -- you want to be a DH long enough to have a breakout fitrep for your in-zone LCDR look.

There doesn't seem to be the SWO equivalent of FRS Instructor, WTI, or Golden path jobs that aviators have at the JO level.

There are 'high visibility' jobs like working on an Admiral's staff.

 

[azguy]

I think Pags is thinking of the Post-DH shore tours, which is now 5 years under the CO/XO fleet-up construct.

 

[BigRed389]

I think Pags is thinking of the Post-DH shore tours, which is now 5 years under the CO/XO fleet-up construct.

Sure...what I was getting at is it the experience can really vary wildly.
For example, that 5 years post-DH now includes the "SWO Clock" stuff...which turns a lot of what used to be "shore duty" into quasi-sea duty. And that of course doesn't mean you can dodge any of the OPNAV/Joint stuff either.

SWO RIVRON OIC's, when we still had them at least, were going into their 3rd straight deploying sea tour, and then going into short shore duty to make the DH school window on time.
Some staffs can turn into sea duty. Lots of sea duty PEP tours.
With DH overmanning, it's rare, but some guys are actually getting turned away from DH. They're told to go to sea for a third tour to rescreen for DH.
JO shore duty is also prime IA/GSA bait...even more so if you are not doing something terribly useful.

That's why...YMMV. But yeah, for the most part, taking the bonus gives you a fair shot at the NROTC/NPS cake jobs, without the stigma that it seems to have in the aviation community.

This isn't meant to start a "who's better battle", but, my observation is that the majority of important/big SWO JO jobs are sea billets. There doesn't seem to be the SWO equivalent of FRS Instructor, WTI, or Golden path jobs that aviators have at the JO level. Now, post DH the SWOs can look forward to the same "path to command" jobs that include DC and Joint tours on the list.

No worries. Like I said before, the unofficial message to JOs from PERS is still, "We really don't give a shit what you do on shore duty." Followed by a sales pitch for the resort at NPS. If anything NPS IS the Golden Path...because the community also makes a big deal out of getting your Master's done on shore duty, and the lower performers generally don't get to go there.
It's not exactly something the community tries to hide. That said, I don't know if that may change 5 years from now. When board stats seem to be the PERS equivalent of "fighting the last war", replacing war with "manning situation," who knows?

 

[Pags]

You sure? Because that would put them hitting DH school at 8.5 ycs minimum.

It sounds like the SWO gate is the same as hours for the same reason -- you want to be a DH long enough to have a breakout fitrep for your in-zone LCDR look.

I may not be sure of the exact timing, but I know that most SWOs of my peer group had a longer shore tour/tours than I did as an aviator. My neighbor had two shore tours: NROTC instructor and NPS. It would seem that most of their timing for their first DH tour is about the same as an aviator's disassociated tour: show up as a senior LT and make O4 during your first DH tour and then complete the second DH tour as an O4. This, as you've mentioned, makes that high water mark hard to get on the first DH tour. For aviators, getting a competitive fitrep while on your dissassociated tour is difficult due to the fact that you spend about half of the time as an O4 select in a small group.

While SWOs can certainly be admirals' aides, there doesn't seem to be a "SWO Golden Path" like Aviators have; if you're a mover and a shaker in the aviation community you go to the FRS or WTI. And as BigRed has indicated, it seems that the golden path (with the SWO DH Bonus) is NPS.

Even with URL screening at 70% overall for O-4, SWO is screening at ~80%, which makes it easier for SWOs to make O4 without good fitrep paper.

The 5yr gap between DH and CO does certainly seem like a scam, but I'm sure they'll need to get good paper at places like OPNAV, NAVSEA, or on joint jobs. At least finding the time for war college won't be difficult. The fact that SWOs training pipeline (first tour) counts as sea duty really gives them a lot more room in their career than an aviator has. I don't know many SWOs who had to do their master's in the evening after flying 10-12hrs a day.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

While this might be a better question for SB given that a similar topic was discussed a few months ago, I want to solicit the thoughts and opinions of the AW community as I know there are some SWOs among the crowd.

My husband is currently about 6 months into his post-DivO shore duty. He is set to graduate NPS in June 2015 but won't hit his 7.5 year mark and signal to start DH school until June of 2016. (He commissioned DEC08) While SB has pretty much concluded that it is a REALLY bad idea to start DH school after the 7.5 year mark, is it a good/bad/neutral action to start DH school almost a fully year early? He is already in discussion with his detailers about getting his orders cut this way. As his wife I am curious as to how this will/will not affect the timing for the rest of his career.

My instinct is saying that it is a good thing. The main argument against starting late is that by the time one is in zone for O4, there might not be an observed FITREP as a DH. Starting early would mean that he would have time for not only the anticipated observed FITREPS but perhaps even an extra one or two to strengthen his package for his first look.

Does anyone have any thoughts or insight? Thanks!

Good/Bad is relative. What does he want to accomplish? Is he looking for command at sea, or does he want something else?