http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199848,00.html
What say you A4s and HAL?
I guess the guys that left with a lump sum were smart.
What say you A4s and HAL?
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Delta Seeks to Terminate Pilots' Pension Plan
- Thread starter Fly Navy
- Start date
Naaaaaaa .... not smart --- they were lucky. But I'd rather be "lucky" than "good" (or smart) any day.Fly Navy said:
We'll see what the judge does. Killing the pilots' pension plan is probably one of the primo reasons that Delta filed Chapter 11 (that's opinion -- if you disagree, fine). The pilots are the ONLY unionized group on the property ... saw this one coming from day one. It would drop most guys' retirement by a factor of 75%. And remember, this isn't "free" money --- it's retirement $$$ promises made by management(s) over the decades that the pilots agreed to in exchange for giving up something else. Usually $$$ that the companies spent in vainglorious attempts at increased market share.
One of the big problems is the PBGC is bankrupt as well --- they just don't know it yet. Another massive pension bailout is the last thing the politicians want to see. But still ... real pension reform (i.e., extending the time to make their DB plans whole -- thus negating the "excuse-argument" of killing the plans in order to stay alive financially) is being held up in the House. Some who hate labor unions don't want to give the airlines a break --- although many of the retirement plan problems inherent in the legacy airlines have their roots in Congressional and bureaucratic mandates or regulations of the past.
PLUS ... you get ding'ed by the PBGC if YOU RETIRE PRIOR TO REACHING AGE 65. Guess what?? The "other" part of the government HAS MANDATED THAT COMMERCIAL PILOTS RETIRE AT AGE 60.
GOTCHA , YOU B@STARDS !!!
Ironic too ... as Delta used to be the #1 airline in the industry for a pilot to get hired by ... Really a shame what's happened to the US airline industry.
And watch out --- more to come --- some in Congress want to expand foreign ownership of US carriers. That's bad for everyone --- unless you are a foreign investor.
I think American and Conteniental are the only 2 legacy passenger carriers that have kept their pension plans. Northwest says they will if Congress passes / Bush signs pension reform before a certain date but that probably won;t happen (A4s?). AA and CO are also the only 2 legacy carriers that have not gone bankrupt so have not had the opportunity to dump their pension plans. (ABX, FedEx & UPS pilots have not lost anything either, but the cargo airlines are making profits.)
At Hawaiian, we did pretty good in the retirement area coming out of our bankruptcy last year. We still have our Defined Benefit (pension) plan until 1/1/2008. At that time, those that were 50 and over on 7/1/2005 will stay with the DB plan and keep accumulating their pension. Those that were 49 and younger will have their DB plan frozen and start receiving company payments into a Defined Contribution plan. The total DC contributions to the pilot group will be an amount that equals 17% of the pilot payroll. Individual amounts will vary as they try to get the DB+DC total monthly amount for each pilot as close as possible to what he would have received if the DB plan had remained. New hires will get a fixed 10% DC.
Some of those Delta guys that left early with lump sums are now flying at Southwest, FedEx, UPS and AirTran. Many were in their early 50s so have plenty of time to still fly.
The employees at the passenger airlines have unfairly taken the brunt of the losses due to mismanagement and increased fuel prices. Management gets bonuses & stock options for taking the company into and out of bankruptcy while employees lose pay & benefits. Passendgers get cheap tickets, the government cloects higher taxes & fees, and the oil companies make record profits while the airline employees lose pay & benefits. It's only been in the last year that airlines have started raising ticket prices to compensate for higher fuel costs - after they bled the employees dry.
There was an article in a newspaper (I forget which one - it seems I read a different one each day as I travel a lot) last week that said long-haul ticket prices (when adjusted for inflation) are 40% cheaper and short-haul are 17% cheaper than they were when the airlines were in the early 1980s.
At Hawaiian, we did pretty good in the retirement area coming out of our bankruptcy last year. We still have our Defined Benefit (pension) plan until 1/1/2008. At that time, those that were 50 and over on 7/1/2005 will stay with the DB plan and keep accumulating their pension. Those that were 49 and younger will have their DB plan frozen and start receiving company payments into a Defined Contribution plan. The total DC contributions to the pilot group will be an amount that equals 17% of the pilot payroll. Individual amounts will vary as they try to get the DB+DC total monthly amount for each pilot as close as possible to what he would have received if the DB plan had remained. New hires will get a fixed 10% DC.
Some of those Delta guys that left early with lump sums are now flying at Southwest, FedEx, UPS and AirTran. Many were in their early 50s so have plenty of time to still fly.
The employees at the passenger airlines have unfairly taken the brunt of the losses due to mismanagement and increased fuel prices. Management gets bonuses & stock options for taking the company into and out of bankruptcy while employees lose pay & benefits. Passendgers get cheap tickets, the government cloects higher taxes & fees, and the oil companies make record profits while the airline employees lose pay & benefits. It's only been in the last year that airlines have started raising ticket prices to compensate for higher fuel costs - after they bled the employees dry.
There was an article in a newspaper (I forget which one - it seems I read a different one each day as I travel a lot) last week that said long-haul ticket prices (when adjusted for inflation) are 40% cheaper and short-haul are 17% cheaper than they were when the airlines were in the early 1980s.
Okay, I have a question, I didn't see it in the other airline thread but I could have skimmed over it. Would there be any chance of abolishing the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978? I don't know an overly large amount of airline pilots, but the few I have talked to said that it would have the chance to save some of the airlines, even though I assume it would spell the end of the dirt-cheap, pay-for-snacks system that has developed. Air travel wasn't meant to be cheap was it? If you want cheap take Amtrak or Greyhound. Again, I could be completely wrong but I was curious!
Well, anything is possible ... but it ain't gonna happen. Too much water under the bridge, etc., etc.
Remember .. it's ALWAYS about money and politics.
The irony is the only part of the airline industry that ISN'T regulated is fare pricing. That's why the whole concept of a "free market", airline style, has always been something of a sham. My opinion.
The signing away of the hugely successful American airline industry ... 1978. Please note who is signing ... please note the political-tool-cum-hack applauding (second from right in pix) who was one of the major players in the "act". And he should know about ... "acting".
Oh, did I mention?? Remember ... it's ALWAYS about money and politics.
Remember .. it's ALWAYS about money and politics.
The irony is the only part of the airline industry that ISN'T regulated is fare pricing. That's why the whole concept of a "free market", airline style, has always been something of a sham. My opinion.
The signing away of the hugely successful American airline industry ... 1978. Please note who is signing ... please note the political-tool-cum-hack applauding (second from right in pix) who was one of the major players in the "act". And he should know about ... "acting".
Oh, did I mention?? Remember ... it's ALWAYS about money and politics.
While I don't like the Delta pilots losing their hard earned pension to bail out incompetent managers, the tax payers - through their elected representatives (i.e. the federal government/congress) - are not blameless in this either. Taxes on airline tickets have doubled if not tripled since 9/11/2001 and are being used for everything but improving ATC, security, airports, etc. The airlines either were not able or afraid to pass these tax increases on to the passengers. Congress knew this would happen yet did it anyway. Next to fuel prices, this is probably the one of biggest contributing factors to the loses airlines have sustained.snort said:
Plus the bankruptcy laws that allow this to happen were put in place by the tax payer's elected representatives.
The tax payer's never complained about this short-sightedness and loved the cheaper ticket prices. Now they get to pay the piper and I don't feel bad about their taking on this fiscal burden at all.
A4sForever said:Well, anything is possible ... but it ain't gonna happen. Too much water under the bridge, etc., etc.
Remember .. it's ALWAYS about money and politics.
The irony is the only part of the airline industry that ISN'T regulated is fare pricing. That's why the whole concept of a "free market", airline style, has always been something of a sham. My opinion.
The signing away of the hugely successful American airline industry ... 1978. Please note who is signing ... please note the political-tool-cum-hack applauding (second from right in pix) who was one of the major players in the "act". And he should know about ... "acting".
Oh, did I mention?? Remember ... it's ALWAYS about money and politics.
My dad did his masters thesis on the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. As a former airline pilot for Eastern, etc. I heard him gripe about it all the time. He is also not a big fan of good ole' Jimmy Carter. :icon_smil Just go squeeze some limes, it will ease the pain.
Or Teddy Kennedy ....FLYMARINES said:My dad did his masters thesis on the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. As a former airline pilot for Eastern, etc. I heard him gripe about it all the time. He is also not a big fan of good ole' Jimmy Carter. :icon_smil Just go squeeze some limes, it will ease the pain.
... (note pix, second from right)Your Dad is a very wise man ....