"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Thucydides
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DADT repealed
- Thread starter GreenLantern330
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"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Thucydides
I'm stealing that for the price of a rep point.
That depends on how tight the squadron is. I have met a few who would want all the dirt as well. Their squadrons loved them.
Yeah, you're going to fit right in.. You should run that by some of the sim instructors in Meridian if you make it that far.
The dilution of the military culture began decades ago and it was already well underway by the time I joined in 99. If I had to guess, I'd say a major turning point at least in Naval Aviation was Tailhook 91. It's been a slow erosion ever sense, but has gained substantial momentum in recent years. Here are just a few of the things I think you can expect in the coming years:
1. Zero alchohol port calls - this might begin with a simple restriction of say 3 drinks/night, but if they can't find an adequate way to enforce I expect none to be the new standard.
2. Mando counseling after every real world weapons release.
3. FNG collateral duty - Gay Awareness Officer (GAO) - responsible for mando sensitivity training twice a quarter
4. Gay Roll'em Night - Led by the GAO. Maybe Brokeback Mountain or Top Gun II (complete with drones and homosexual love affair)
5. All proposed callsigns submitted to CAG for approval to ensure political correctness
6. Instead of being the norm, the skirt chasing LT will become shunned in future "enlightened" RRs- with accompanying adverse fitrep (from Skipper who has been married since he was an Ensign in flight school)
7. No more cursing allowed in workspaces
8. .... I could go on, but you get the idea
Some of those are half joking, but others not so much. The culture of the military and that of Naval Aviation has and continues to change to be more touchy-feely, non-offensive, politically correct and safe.
9. Lets not forget glow belts for everyone.. the AF is way ahead of us on this one.
Generals Mattis, Petraeus, and McChrystal would certainly agree with Thucydides (McChrystal is now teaching at....wait for it.....Yale), so if some old sim fogey wants to cling to their anti-intellectualism, fuck'em. I'm here to win a goddamn war, not thump my chest about being a warrior.
Clux4
Banned
Yada, Yada, Yada, loss of Warrior Culture.
All the American's I saw at Bethesda the last time I was there or all the ones at Walter Reed, Brooks Army Medical, Trippler Army Medical or any of the other treatment facilities in the country were no heroes to me. They gave their very best to their country while they were lead by a generation of pussified leaders. Some of their leaders were also of their caliber; men of questionable character. Lest we forget those that gave the ultimate sacrifice, those that are not here today because of decisions they made to serve, to protect a brother-in-arms. I hope their families are constantly reminded that their loved ones served in a tender-gentler military. While we are at it, we might as well question their reason for fighting.
This nonsense about generation gone all soft and unable to fight is plain crap. There is nothing to suggest it. The young men and women of this generation are answering the nation's call for service in an all-volunteer force. Their sacrifices are no less different from those of the men and women of previous war, some of whom were drafted into the Armed Forces. Unfortunately, some of the men and women of this generation will get old and also question the next generation.
All the American's I saw at Bethesda the last time I was there or all the ones at Walter Reed, Brooks Army Medical, Trippler Army Medical or any of the other treatment facilities in the country were no heroes to me. They gave their very best to their country while they were lead by a generation of pussified leaders. Some of their leaders were also of their caliber; men of questionable character. Lest we forget those that gave the ultimate sacrifice, those that are not here today because of decisions they made to serve, to protect a brother-in-arms. I hope their families are constantly reminded that their loved ones served in a tender-gentler military. While we are at it, we might as well question their reason for fighting.
This nonsense about generation gone all soft and unable to fight is plain crap. There is nothing to suggest it. The young men and women of this generation are answering the nation's call for service in an all-volunteer force. Their sacrifices are no less different from those of the men and women of previous war, some of whom were drafted into the Armed Forces. Unfortunately, some of the men and women of this generation will get old and also question the next generation.
bluemarlin04
Well-Known Member
I was trying to keep it civil and to tell you the truth I still am. So what if I am a loadmaster. BFD. I signed up to be an Aircrewmen and they (Father Navy) sent me there. It was out of my control. I made the best of the situation. Am I supposed to be lesser of a man because of my job? Am I not allowed an opinion? You seem to have a personal vendetta against anyone who disagrees. First I get told to stay the fuck out of aviation. Than people proceed to take shots at my job. While you're at it, let's all go rag on the admin workers and people who don't fly jets. Fuck their opinions right? Fact is, everyone has a job they got stuck in at some point that wasn't their first choice. Way to keep it professional. Am I not allowed to discuss my opinions without getting ragged on for my job because I have a different view point? Am I not allowed to make opinions by research and readings that I keep up on? I thought this whole forum was for discussing view points not for people to take personal attacks at each other.
The whole warrior culture changing because of DADT is a bunch of shit. It's not going to affect fighting forces. People are just mad because they have to change their ways. Do people here want to tell someone's father and mother their son isn't a "warrior" because he's gay? How about my friend with a Navy Cross who fought in Fallujah (the most intense fighting since Hue), is he not a "warrior" because he likes men? It's old school bigotry that people are stuck on just like blacks and women. Ohh noes, I can't make gay jokes at work anymore. I still stand by my point, times change and people adjust accordingly.
If a person can do their job effectively, WGAFF about what they do. Keep it professional and I don't see the problem.
BTW, if you're going to take pot shots at some enlisted guy because they disagree with you, at least get it right. We have three pallets and we can move cargo and VIPS. Is the entire VR wing not up to your standards of being in the military? Maybe the whole military should just STFU and not be allowed opinions unless they are the tip of the spear.
Yes, a new generation is arriving. Older generations believed in segregation. Before that, not letting women vote. Before that, slavery where owning someone was no big deal. Like I said, times change and people adjust.
And the human mind and body does adjust. People get over it and learn to live with it. That was my point. Again, I don't see why that attack was necessary.
As would Admirals Walsh (former Blue Angel), Stravidis and BG McMaster...
EDIT
And these folks:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/04/AR2007020401196.html
You're contradicting yourself there. There will definitely be an effect; the questions are how much, for how long, and will the military, when measured as a fighting force, be better or worse as a result.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Many people forget that in some of the greatest "Warrior Cultures," homosexuality wasn't something that was always frowned upon. Look back at the classical Greek and to a lesser extent, Roman culture. We all like to think the warriors that were displayed to be so macho in '300' would never touch another man's sausage. Truth is, homosexuality was a fairly common practice, or, to be more precise, bisexuality.
If you want to call them any less of a warrior because of their 'progressive' actions, go for it, but I believe history would prove you incorrect.
If you want to call them any less of a warrior because of their 'progressive' actions, go for it, but I believe history would prove you incorrect.
bluemarlin04
Well-Known Member
Ok, my mistake. There may be an effect, but I doubt it will be as large as people are predicting. I seriously doubt that flamboyantly gay individuals are going to be rushing to the recruiter nor will some gay person start making moves on other men in the squadron locker room. Some people may have a hard time adopting but I think it'll will be a fairly smooth transition especially with the newer generation coming up.
Like others have said, homosexuality or bisexual acts are/were fairly common practice in many cultures.
If we use what previous cultures allowed or didn't allow in re homosexuals as a guideline for what is done with our military, should we do the same with what those previous cultures allowed or didn't allow in re women serving in the military, or what they did in re incorporation of religious festivals?
That wasn't really germane to what I was mentioning, or the topic of this conversation. I was just pointing out that homosexuality, or the acceptance thereof, has little to do with the maintaining of a warrior culture.
Those warrior cultures were so completely different socially, and were part of such radically different societies, that you can't use what they did or didn't do as reference points here. I have not seen anyone state that homosexuals can't fight. And it's about 99% agreed (from what I have seen) that the military will be able to adjust to this change in policy. It seems highly unlikely, though, that there will be no disruption at all during this period of adjustment.
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