• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Da Vinci Code

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cate

Pretty much invincible
I do have to back up Crystal a little - it's one thing to criticize something like a documentary without seeing it (i.e. Farenheit 9/11), but this is a work of fiction. There are lots of works of fiction out there that are based on an actual thing or event and, by playing fast and loose with the facts, present an interesting, entertaining fictional story.

A lot of the seedy underbelly of the Catholic church mentioned in the book is actually true. It's true that the Bible, though inspired by God (note to non-Christians - can't back that up, it's a crucial article of faith), was written by fallible Man, and all of those men were, well, men.

It's true that the Bible, a thousand years ago, underwent some pretty serious editing and rewrites - Dan Brown ascribes ulterior motives, but I'm willing to buy that the church was just trying to determine which of the many versions of the story that we now call "the Bible" was the most accurate.

It's true that, while the greater population of Opus Dei is just a bunch of devout Catholics wanting to do good works and live holy lives, there is a truly bizarre fundamentalist segment that engages in such acts as corporal mortification (basically, self-whipping and self-gouging and all kinds of behavior that most people go to psychiatrists to escape) to the extent that cult-buster-esque organizations exist to help families extract their children from Opus Dei for fear of physical and emotional harm.

It's true that many of the rituals that Christians in general and Catholics in particular practice today are influenced or taken in whole from pagan rituals predating Christianity. In the early days of the Chuch, they were trying to spread Christianity around to the shrinking pagan majority. One of the best ways to do this was to let them have their familiar rituals, but assign them new, Christian significance.

Dan Brown takes these truths, among others, shakes them up a bit, adds some fictional characters and fictional situations, and makes a right good novel about it. Yes, parts of it can be read as critical of the Catholic church, and if you read it as a history book rather than a novel it would definitely condemn the Church as a lying, murderous, corrupt entity. But the first thing to remember is that all - all - controlling institutions have some history of corruption, no matter how slight. The second thing to remember is that the Gospels were written, the Crusades took place, and the pagans were placated over a thousand years ago, and the Church has evolved a whole lot since then - we generally don't go around abusing people for not converting, which is more than can be said for a lot of religions out there.

And the third thing to remember is the first thing that I mentioned, which is that this is a novel, and it's a pretty good one, in my opinion. Try reading it. It's actually entertaining, and thought-provoking, which is generally recognized as a good thing.

Good God. That was almost as long as Kevin's.
 

kevin

Registered User
ladybug, crystal, cate....fictional book? sure by definition. unfortunately that's not how it's taken by a significant number of people. one could argue the same way about f9/11. just because it's a "documentary" doesn't make it valid. it's some fact mixed with a lot of garbage and things taken out of context. dont doubt for a second there arent A LOT of people (especially on the left) who take it as practically gospel. same deal with the Code. maybe you all realize it's fictional, but that's not how it's presented by the people who wrote it, NOR accepted by many people who believe everything about it (cloak-and-dagger sells better as non-fiction than fiction). same with the movie Stigmata (good movie by the way) which once again pulled the popular trick of writing a story about the catholic church being equivalent to the KGB, and stating as almost fact that the Gospel of Thomas was written by Jesus himself.

cate, yes true. i've read all that stuff in HISTORY books. what's your point? the Da Vinci Code takes some history and puts a nice fable to it. if so, that's what the article intends to prove.

once again i'll say this...if im going to a conference on "the Code" and asked to make a presentation, of course i'll do my extra homework, read the book, etc. but making a post on it doesn't really necessitate this. if you think im full of ****, fine, then prove it. i feel i can read a summary of the Da Vinci Code and get the jist of what it's about without reading the nitty gritty details. that article goes into pretty FACTUAL detail about why the Da Vinci Code is FICTIONAL. as i said, there is an alarming number of people who take it as fact, hence the point of the article! especially in a culture where religion is so evil-intentioned and taboo, fictional things are quickly made into fact as long as they fit on the right side. i know there are plenty of people on this site, including myself, who chose NOT to see f9/11 because they didnt feel right contributing $8.50 to that self-righteous moron. does that mean we don't have any place to make disparaging arguments against it. dont think so.

i have, however, read the pocket version of the kama sutra if anyone wants to discuss that.
 

Cate

Pretty much invincible
All right, Kev, let's sit back and pour ourselves a nice cup of cocoa and calm down. I don't think anyone was attacking you; we were just pointing out that your argument would stand up better if you had read the book. If you did, you would realize that the entertainment value really outweighs the conspiracy theories.

There is a crucial difference between this book and F9/11 - the movie claims to be a documentary, with its basis in fact. The book claims to be a novel, with some factual background. A documentary is expected to be true; a novel isn't. Yeah, some people are going to take it as Gospel (so to speak), but they're usually the nutjobs who think that Catholicism is a crazy cult anyway. Kind of like F/911 - the ones who believe it are usually against Bush anyway, and those who don't, aren't.

I just don't think the book does any harm. If someone's going to hate me for being Catholic (and believe me, it's happened), they're going to go on doing it; if they don't hate Catholics, the novel probably won't make them hate Catholics.

And by the way, I think the pocket version of the Kama Sutra is a travesty. It competely violates the spirit of the original. I don't know who the editors were.
 

kevin

Registered User
"All right, Kev, let's sit back and pour ourselves a nice cup of cocoa and calm down. I don't think anyone was attacking you; we were just pointing out that your argument would stand up better if you had read the book. If you did, you would realize that the entertainment value really outweighs the conspiracy theories."

--fist off i dont like cocoa, and secondly im never calm. but as far as being attacked or not, i dont really give a schit. im making my points regardless.

"There is a crucial difference between this book and F9/11 - the movie claims to be a documentary, with its basis in fact. The book claims to be a novel, with some factual background. A documentary is expected to be true; a novel isn't. Yeah, some people are going to take it as Gospel (so to speak), but they're usually the nutjobs who think that Catholicism is a crazy cult anyway. Kind of like F/911 - the ones who believe it are usually against Bush anyway, and those who don't, aren't."

--i disagree. i know of very "normal" people who take the book as fact. i agree about that difference between the book and f9/11, however....practically speaking i disagree. yes the fine print says "fiction" but that's not how it's necessarily been presented (in terms of marketing). the authors arent going to be out and about telling people "oh, no buddy, it's just a nice story we wrote". like i said, if people want to hate something or believe something, they'll make things fit....and i certainly dont think it's just "nutjobs" who do this.

"I just don't think the book does any harm. If someone's going to hate me for being Catholic (and believe me, it's happened), they're going to go on doing it; if they don't hate Catholics, the novel probably won't make them hate Catholics."

--true, but that doesnt mean you dont stand up for what you believe. if somebody tells me the Pope is an *******, dont think im going to just smile and say "oh, well that's nice". im at least going to try and get some rationale basis for his or her viewpoint.

travesty? i havent read the original kama sutra....the pocket version is virtually all pictures and fits conveniently in a travel suitcase or even jacket pocket, much like a flask. that's why i got one for each member of my family................ok, no im not that ****ed up.
 

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Ygtbsm

kevin said:
...im making my points regardless.

Yeah...whatever. :sleep_125
 

Attachments

  • The back of the boat.JPG
    The back of the boat.JPG
    246.1 KB · Views: 59

Sabre170

Active Member
None
Kevin, and everyone else,

Since I started this thread, let me say something.

I am a christian with conservative views; I also enjoy reading for pleasure and I happened to pick up the Da Vinci Code... I like thriller novels and I enjoy movies like the "Skulls", anything to do with secret societies and the whole "I know something you don't know."

By reading the book, I have not lost my salvation, and I don't believe the book. I understand their are many people who believe what they read, just like my daughter thought ET really died. I can't explain to a five year old that ET was just a movie and that he is only pretend, so I don't try, I just hug her and let her keep watching until he wakes up and goes home. My point is I can't help what others are going to think, but that does not mean I should not read the book myself. I also read the Harry Potter series (which I thought was awsome... If you haven't read those books, I really recommend them).

Kevin, I don't me to single you out. I understand your point and it is well received (by me), but I believe the bible is 100% correct (even the maps :icon_mi_1 ) Thank you for taking the time to post the references, I may look at a few of them because they might say more about the Illuminate (another secret group that is fasinating).

To you others, I am almost finished with the book. I have enjoyed it and would recommend it as a good, easy read. Great for a weekend of reading. Sit back with some cherry flavored cool-aid and enjoy the book... just don't make plans, because it is hard to put down.
 

kevin

Registered User
no offense taken......as i said, the arguments are directed towards those who take the book literally, and there are plenty. im not accusing anyone specifically here of taking it literally or not taking it literally, cause frankly i dont know. that simple. nor did i or anyone else claim that reading any book would cause you to "lose your soul". enjoy the cool-aid.
 

Cate

Pretty much invincible
However, I've heard that reading the pocket version of the Kama Sutra could cause you to lose your soul, especially if you take it literally.

At the very least, you could slip a disk.
 

akamifeldman

Interplanetary Ambassador
oh wow. i got into this post waaay too late, a good thing for once

Personally, I liked the book, a very quick weekend [/U]fiction read. The ending is kinda obvious and there's not much deep theme there, but it is fun in entertainment value.

EDIT: I hear this will be a movie soon, can anyone confirm?
 

USN99

USN99
None
Usn99

This DaVinci Code book seems to have triggered quite a response. Haven't read it, prefer not to read novels. However, did read " Holy Blood, Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln, a work of non-fiction written in the early 1980's, well before DaVinci Code but upon which DaVinci Code is based.

I don't get too worked up over novels and would suggest to any Christians to just cool out. Novels are only novels. On the other hand, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail', while a very scholarly work and a hard read, does make some key points.

- Modern historical works published in the 21st century are shaped by standards of research, documentation, and evidence which were invented in Germany in the 19th century.
- So written works from 2000 years ago which purport to be "history", i.e., the New Testament, are not modern historical works and do not meet modern standards of research and evidence. Ergo, the New Testament is a religious or spiritual work not history.
-The authors of the New Testament are documenting what they believe but not what they witnessed. None of the new testament authors were witnesses to the events of Jesus' life.
- A nascent Christian Church, enduring brutal suppression by the Romans is not going to survive if it does not enforce its ideology on the followers by standardizing doctrine. (A "bible" will become that standard "doctrine".) Then when Constantine makes that new Christian Church the equivalent of a state religion, it is not going to survive and thrive if it maintains or asserts that the Romans were to blame for the execution of their spiritual leader. Therefore, it is no stretch of logic to assert that the shaping over centuries of what we see today as the New Testament is indeed the standard doctrine (it isn't modern history) and represents the product of the political environment within which it was written.
- 2000 years ago Jewish men overwhelmingly married and this was especially so of Rabbi's (a.k.a., teachers). It is absolutely no stretch of logic to assert that Jesus was married because he was a Jewish teacher who lived 2000 years ago. What's the big deal if he did marry? 21st century preachers and ministers (Protestants) marry. And so what if Jesus' wife had to escape Palestine - the Romans were indeed brutal rulers who would increase their brutality when the Jews revolted (again) a few decades after the death of Jesus. Only if the "adherents of Jesus' message" want to suppress a "dynastic/political" rival to their ascendence (which did occur under Constantine) would anyone care if Jesus did marry and had off-spring who survived in Southern France.
- Dan Brown does not have to write a novel to mount a meaningful attack on the Catholic Church, which in the 21st century is a largely benign organization (except for the pedophile priests). However, recall your college Western Civ classes. The Catholic Church from its inception until the 1870's was a dominant secular, political (and military) power. The Inquisition - which only ended in Spain but was initiated in other parts of Europe centuries earlier- was the Catholic equivalent of an ideological purge reminiscent of 20th century communist governments. But anyone holding grudges against the Catholic Church stemming from political abuses centuries ago needs to just calm down, chill out and have a Diet Coke (preferably decaf).
 

ladybug

Jolly Roger's fiance
Kevin-
You are very high strung and take it from someone who can be that way sometimes you need to relax. Since you like to read go to Amazon.com and locate two books one called Advances in ABC Relaxation Training and ABC Relaxation Theory both written by Johnathan C Smith, PhD. These books both cover the topic of relxation prinicples and activities. I used these books to provide the basis for my Senior Experiment in Experimental Psychology (whihc I now posses and BS in ). Read them and put them into use daily. Take all fiction with a grain of salt (again I feel the need to reiterate this comment from my earlier post). It is ok to be upset that people see this work of fiction as something that is true but you need to understand that it is those people who have the problem and how you reacte to them is your decision. You can allow them to upset you or you can be like a duck and let it roll right off your back. I enjoyed the book as a work of fiction and an interesting conversation piece for a conversation that I had with both of my parents (my father is a Methodist Minister and my Mom a Junior high counselor who suggested I read the book) and also with a good friend who is Catholic. No one I talked to had the reaction you are having so you see it is you who have the problem. You are way to tense. Instead of Karma Sutra let me suggest Yoga and Thi Chia. Both of these employ the key basis of relaxation... Breathing. Focus on your breath and all will be good.

Amanda
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top