Combat Time . . . .

[robav8r]

So tonight, over dinner, my wife and I were talking about current events in both the USAF and the USN. She asked me out of the blue: "who has the most combat time among the services?" I said, what do you mean? She said; "who has dropped more ordnance and been engaged in more combat, Navy or Air Force." Naturally, I said, I don't have a clue. Anyone out there know who has seen more action ???

 

[Treetop Flyer]

The Air Force, and it's not even close. The AF is way bigger.

 

[hscs]

What is the metric? Time or ordnance?

If it is time, I would say Army - lots of helos in IZ / AF.

 

[MIDNJAC]

AF guys in OEF alone, for the most part, were wheels up and in the **** within minutes, come back, pit, reload, launch again. Meanwhile, USN assets, not so much. Marines probably also eclipse us based on similar scenarios at times of OEF/OIF/OIR

 

[Recovering LSO]

Which leads to interesting question regarding their retention problem: if they're doing so much while deployed (and I think we all agree that they're dropping WAY more), why are they all so unhappy? Is it the fact that they're deploying? Deploying too much? For too long?

But as far as job satisfaction - making bad guys disappear seems like it's prob pretty satisfying?

Has the AF found away to make the environment suck so bad that even those operational "wins" aren't enough?

 

[MIDNJAC]

I think the answer lies in the term "queep" and to maybe a lesser extent, the "empowerment" of every non-rater, to include everyone from ratey three stripers to "NCO's", all of which are experiencing regular micro aggressions while trying to argue outside their lane, and then finding the sympathetic ear of a bunch of no load non-rated officers who throw up a shitstorm. At least that has been my impression. Put another way, misplaced professional priorities, and an erosion of military customs and courtesies, bearing, and all that other shit in favor of an egalitarian society.

 

[BACONATOR]

Which leads to interesting question regarding their retention problem: if they're doing so much while deployed (and I think we all agree that they're dropping WAY more), why are they all so unhappy? Is it the fact that they're deploying? Deploying too much? For too long?

But as far as job satisfaction - making bad guys disappear seems like it's prob pretty satisfying?

Has the AF found away to make the environment suck so bad that even those operational "wins" aren't enough?

Well they have their own institutional/culture and service-related bullshit to contend with. Imagine that in the middle of a tour, you get sent on a six-month deployment to Saudi to sit at a desk and work dip clearances? Oh you can? IA? Yeah, they have that, too. They still take a lot of dudes and send them to sandy places to do stupid shit that is coded by AFSC, and not necessarily that it relates at all to your job. And then they'll come back and still be on an operational tour deploying, etc.

And then there's the silliness of SOS, leadership training, death by GMT, getting hemmed up for have your flight suit sleeves pushed up your forearms, or folded inward (how they do it) the wrong number of times, etc. Every airmen is a warrior, including the desk-monkey who's never left the cubicle, much less the US.

We may be jealous of how much more focused they are on flying than we are, but that doesn't mean their arguments are without merit. Frankly, the proof is in the pudding, so whether or not you agree with them, if they are leaving in droves, it's a problem. They spend a TON of their overall time on things that don't matter, and they feel more and more that the primary mission of flying is dwindling, and to a degree they are right. Time is a pie chart, and when more and more of it is taken up by "don't rape anyone/don't kill yourself training" amongst myriad other factors, then the other slices of pie shrink.

 

[robav8r]

Great replies fellas - thanks !!!

 

[RobLyman]

I think hcsc has it right. Flight time actually "in combat" is the Army. In my book, taking off CONUS and logging combat flight hours for the entire crossing until you land at FOB safe haven in country isn't right.

BACONATOR, I think you're right...sort of. Clearly the proof is in the pudding, or more correctly the proof of the pudding is in the eating. But, if you coddle someone, it sets expectations. For instance, in one service, just being back CONUS is great. In another, having no van to take you to the flight line is a hardship. No $hit, living at Camp Buehring was considered unsuitable housing for Air Force. They got additional pay for it. For me, simply having my own 1/2 of a CHU was awesome. It's all about expectations.

Is it coincidence that I literally spilled a drink on a Hurt Feelings Report while I wrote this? Really, I did.

 

[BACONATOR]

I think hcsc has it right. Flight time actually "in combat" is the Army. In my book, taking off CONUS and logging combat flight hours for the entire crossing until you land at FOB safe haven in country isn't right.

BACONATOR, I think you're right...sort of. Clearly the proof is in the pudding, or more correctly the proof of the pudding is in the eating. But, if you coddle someone, it sets expectations. For instance, in one service, just being back CONUS is great. In another, having no van to take you to the flight line is a hardship. No $hit, living at Camp Buehring was considered unsuitable housing for Air Force. They got additional pay for it. For me, simply having my own 1/2 of a CHU was awesome. It's all about expectations.

Is it coincidence that I literally spilled a drink on a Hurt Feelings Report while I wrote this? Really, I did.View attachment 17032

I had my own CHU in Iraq... might want to dry up that hurt feelings report!

 

[Jim123]

Would it help morale if we had Hawaiian Shirt Fridays?

 

[HackerF15E]

BACONATOR, I think you're right...sort of. Clearly the proof is in the pudding, or more correctly the proof of the pudding is in the eating. But, if you coddle someone, it sets expectations. For instance, in one service, just being back CONUS is great. In another, having no van to take you to the flight line is a hardship.

Is your point seriously that AF pilots are a huge gang of coddled pussies, and they're leaving in droves because they're not being coddled enough?

What is really happening is that there are droves of no-shit warriors in the blue service who want to fly and fight, but are frustrated by the service's lack of focus on combat airpower and the poisoned culture of "leadership" that currently infests most levels above operational units.

These are real problems, not just the bitching of a bunch of wussies.

 

[RobLyman]

Is your point seriously that AF pilots are a huge gang of coddled pussies, and they're leaving in droves because they're not being coddled enough?

What is really happening is that there are droves of no-shit warriors in the blue service who want to fly and fight, but are frustrated by the service's lack of focus on combat airpower and the poisoned culture of "leadership" that currently infests most levels above operational units.

These are real problems, not just the bitching of a bunch of wussies.

It doesn't really matter whether I think they are wussies, does it? THEY think they deserve more (expectations) and are unhappy without the 'more'. Mean while aviators in other services have less and endure the same BS, yet appear to be leaving in fewer numbers. Real problems or not, clearly part of this is about THEIR expectations.

 

[BACONATOR]

It doesn't really matter whether I think they are wussies, does it? THEY think they deserve more (expectations) and are unhappy without the 'more'. Mean while aviators in other services have less and endure the same BS, yet appear to be leaving in fewer numbers. Real problems or not, clearly part of this is about THEIR expectations.

Not for long. The navy is starting to wake up.

 

[jtmedli]

It doesn't really matter whether I think they are wussies, does it? THEY think they deserve more (expectations) and are unhappy without the 'more'. Mean while aviators in other services have less and endure the same BS, yet appear to be leaving in fewer numbers. Real problems or not, clearly part of this is about THEIR expectations.

Other services tend to lag the AF by a few years (or so I've heard) in this department. I think the Navy is about to be in a world of hurt and they don't eveN have a real grasp on how bad it's going to be yet.