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Close Quarters Pistol

VetteMuscle427

is out to lunch.
None
I doubt that I could engage a BG that is right up on me like that. Carrying concealed requires me to take a second to draw... and that is not under pressure. And even if I did have a weapon out... I think I would still try to create distance. I like the way he handles the weapon, keeping it close and under control very well... but being that close to a BG? Even if I get 3 rounds into him... and get shanked in the process... I lose.

I think the biggest thing to take away... don't let someone sneak up on you. But I'm an early warning kind of guy.
 

Zissou

Banned
I think he's using the gun, to create distance.

We're assuming the BG has knife. What if he doesnt and had just physically attacked you?

In close quarters like that, I train to get to the gun and get the gun in his grill. Turning a wrestling match into a one way gunfight.

Its very difficult to stop someone from coming out of the holster, especially when you weren't expecting him to have one.

Keep in mind, he isnt saying : when you see the badguy, run up to him then wrestle/shoot.

He's dealing with the ambush/caught off guard scenario.

Most LEO gunfights happen at 7yds. So there is no avoiding the scenario, it very likely to be close. Ide say even more likely for a civilian who is being mugged etc.

No easy answer to this very ugly situation.
 

Zissou

Banned
I flicked Gabe an email, maybe he'll have a moment to come post a couple comments and answer a couple of the questions.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
insane said:
I prefer the lean into method...
And just to make myself clear (as much as one can w/ typing in a freakin' forum :)) I don't subscribe to "leaning" back -- rather moving back to create space w/ weapon deployment. Unless you just wanna fight, then go for it and be prepared for the possible consequence. I always strive to keep my CG directly over my feet -- allowing balance and the ability to move in any direction of the compass. Ahhhhh ... that ol' perfect world. I LOVE livin' in it!
.... I dont think Gabe is encouraging anyone to close with the BG .. We're assuming the BG has knife...
I didn't think he was, either -- it's just that, having taught civilians and govt'. types (and a few LEO's) and after witnessing the results -- I think his techniques (high-skill level required techniques, I might add -- and the guy IS a martial arts aficionado) stand as much chance of getting YOU shot w/ your OWN pistol as they do of putting rounds into the sack of shit assaulting you --- but again, when you're THAT close -- go crazy and use whatever works.

And I NEVER assume anything -- learned that one a long time ago. I do, however, always carry a knife amongst my bag of tricks. I've trained w/ it, I "think" about it (no, you fools -- NOT like THAT :eek:) and if in a full body-press situation, I am confident of my ability to access and use a blade to effect, messy and potentially painful (to me) as it might be .... because I've already done my "mental homework".

killhim1hy5.jpg


I'm NOT sayin' his techniques aren't interesting or germane -- he's a pro and does this for a living (which is sometimes NOT a recommendation :)) -- it's just not something that the average Joe (there's THAT guy again) can reasonably train to .... but HEY!! Whatever wins the fight is what I'd subscribe to ... again, GO CRAZY. Controlled crazy. Your life may depend on it. :icon_wink

Speakin' of crazy -- I still think scenario #2 is close to it. You gotta hit what you're shooting at -- he's making it more problematical.

Plus ... we're not getting any younger, are we ?? :D

Zissou said:
.....Are you familiar with the Tueller drill? aka 21 Foot rule?
Yeah ... didn't believe it, got introduced to it, saw it, did it, timed it, believed it, instructed it ...

Who sez you can't teach old dogs.
:D
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
And just to make myself clear (as much as one can w/ typing in a freakin' forum :)) I don't subscribe to "leaning" back -- rather moving back to create space w/ weapon deployment. Unless you just wanna fight, then go for it and be prepared for the possible consequence. I always strive to keep my CG directly over my feet -- allowing balance and the ability to move in any direction of the compass. Ahhhhh ... that ol' perfect world. I LOVE livin' in it!

Then I think we're saying pretty much the exact same thing! :D
 

Zissou

Banned
I think he made 100% hits in scenario 2. Granted its a canned demo.


The "lean back" he demonstrated and criticized is the old FBI technique where you rock back on your heels and use your off hand to swat away the BG's weapon. Thankfully that one is uncommon these days.
 

HueyCobra8151

Well-Known Member
pilot
The thing I don't like about Video #2 is he makes an aggressive move into the door, then stops, and does some awkward looking "shoot while ducking down then standing up" maneuver. Does that make you a hard target? I bet I can adjust my pistol downwards at least as fast as you can drop down in a squatting position (while maintaining adequate control of yourself, your weapon, and your fire). If you have ever done "two to the chest, one to the pelvic girdle" drills, this might even be a natural response for you.

Why not either make a less aggressive move and "slice the pie" (with or without the door), -OR- if you are going to be aggressive, continue past the killzone and take a dominant position in the room you are trying to clear.

All he does IMO in the second video is prolong his exposure to the point of maximum danger, the "fatal front." And the interior wall he semi-hides behind would provide no cover, and actually, because bullets tend to travel along walls, he seems to put himself in an even more dangerous position.

Besides, why bring a pistol to a shotgun fight? :)
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I flicked Gabe an email, maybe he'll have a moment to come post a couple comments and answer a couple of the questions.

*Pssssssst* .... he's registering as we type. :)

Tell him "we" see everything ... "we" hear everything ... "we're" everywhere ... but we weren't here -- and you never saw us. :eek:
 
Howdy gents. I had no idea this forum existed. Right off the bat I will say I am no air warrior, just a guy with sore feet. Anyway...to the videos.

They are youtube clips of a video we did titled Advanced Close Range Gunfighting. First a note on our methodology. We train pistol with the fight in mind. In other words, the range to us is like hitting a bag is to a boxer. It is only a small part of the training. We do a great deal of force on force training. We use Airsoft or simmunition or whatever is available and we set up gunfights. We do them over and over and over until we identify 'trends" them we train to those trends. Most of the square-range marksmanship-based shooting schools and trainers hate me and what I do.

No big deal...we have a higher calling than the opinions of others right?

Video #1 addresses defending from the Sul Ready position. This is a worst case situation where your tactics failed and you find yourself in that situation. You do not get into this problem intentionally. We are showing that you can easily orient the pistol on target and shoot. That's it. We are not looking at the situation if the bad guy is a foot farther away or if this or if that. Only that there you are...bad guy has crashed into you and you are grabbed up in the fight.

There is an entire block of instruction with the extreme close range material that addresses more that is not shown.

Video #2 addresses a fight in a narrow environment. We are big advocates of moving off the line of fire. If we have space we will use space. So what if you don't have alot of space?

We took that question into our training room and worked it for an entire day trying to find an answer. We were shooting the hell out of each other with airsoft. Toward the end of the day, when the goofy-factor was beginning to come out, I ran the drill again. I executed this same technique and was not shot once. We all woke up real quick then. We ran it again and again and it substantially increased our survivability.

What is it? It is a fencing move called the In Quartata. We use it in a worst of the worst situation. Narrow environment - bad guy has initiative and is drawing.

The initial move gets your gun out and gets you off the line of fire for the first couple of shots. I like plan Bs. In our original drill, Rudy our training partner swept his muzzle right to my face, but I had used the space available and dropped below his line of fire, hitting him a few more times. If Plan B is good, a Plan C is better. When Rudy brought his muzzle down to me, I moved offline again and closed in on his flank.

Anyway...that is it in a nutshell. Somewhat out of the box, but we have found that the majority of traditional range training won't hold up in force on force so we proof-test everything we do.

Thanks

Gabe Suarez
 

FlyinRock

Registered User
The whole thing relates to emergency drills. Why practice them? When things turn to shit its better to have a poor plan than no plan at all! There is no way anyone can drill for every possible contigincy(sp) but it sure beats hell out of "I want my Momma..."
 

FlyinRock

Registered User
The whole thing relates to emergency drills. Why practice them? When things turn to shit its better to have a poor plan than no plan at all! There is no way anyone can drill for every possible contigincy(sp) but it sure beats hell out of "I want my Momma..."
BTW
I have the utmost respect for Gabe and his skills and training methods. My response above was not directed towards him by any means but to a previous post.
 
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