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Close Quarters Pistol

Zissou

Banned
Gabe Suarez is a friend and well regarded CQB instructor. These short Youtube vids are good food for thought, in my opinion He is one of the few civ/leo instructors that I feel is teaching gunfighting as opposed to shooting.

Both are important but its the Fighting Mindset that I find lacking at most "skill" based schools.

I thought some of you guys might find these interesting, even if you dont like them.


and this:
 

scoober78

(HCDAW)
pilot
Contributor
I would LOVE to hear more about the second one. I don't pretend to be an expert...but an interested student...and I can't come up with what the heck he's doing there.:confused:

Good stuff in the first though. "Gunfight" scenarios are seriously undertrained in EVERY (mil and civ) course of instruction I've been through. About the best I've seen are draw hand shots from just clear of the carry.
 

Zissou

Banned
http://www.paladin-press.com/authormo_1003.aspx

I found the above on Google.

But I'll bet you know his name from his former position as lead instructor at Front Sight. FS is purposely not mentioned in his biography probably for a number of reasons. FS is known for leveling lawsuits, Gabe is a devout Christian and FS is affiliated with a certain religion he does not wish to be associated with. All my personal opinion BTW.

What I like about Gabe, which is illustrated in these little clips, is that he thinks about "what things could go wrong here? What can I do then?" And trains for it.

At the least I think he is looking for bad case scenarios and working through them. I like that alot.
 

Zissou

Banned
I would LOVE to hear more about the second one. I don't pretend to be an expert...but an interested student...and I can't come up with what the heck he's doing there.:confused:

Good stuff in the first though. "Gunfight" scenarios are seriously undertrained in EVERY (mil and civ) course of instruction I've been through. About the best I've seen are draw hand shots from just clear of the carry.




Im no expert either but here is what I see in Vid 2:

First, when he sees the doorway is held he trains to attack.

Shots one through five are each taken at different levels, as he descends the BadGuy must track him, moving targets are harder to hit.

Then he moves left, changing the angle, again forcing the BG to react to his move.

When I watched the video I put myself in the doorway and thought "this dude came to take this doorway, I'de need my A game to win, and it would be work to tag him"

Im not saying his tactics are my choice. But his mindset is right on time as far as Im concerned. He's thinking about tough situations, planning his moves, and training them. Even if he had bad plans, his preparation and aggressiveness would beat 9 out of 10.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
.... I'll bet you know his name from his former position as lead instructor at Front Sight. FS is purposely not mentioned in his biography probably for a number of reasons ....
That's it -- and I can imagine the reasons for the FS affiliation not being "mentioned" in his biography ... :)
 

sodajones

Combat Engineer
I don't "get" the the second video. The last move on the first video, where he has his pistol upside down attempting to make physical contact with the offender, doesn't vibe with me either. Seems like an opportune time to have that pistol taken, disabled, or turned around. The other positions looked pretty good though.

I agree that most gunfighting courses are lacking.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
I don't "get" the the second video. The last move on the first video, where he has his pistol upside down attempting to make physical contact with the offender, doesn't vibe with me either. Seems like an opportune time to have that pistol taken, disabled, or turned around. The other positions looked pretty good though.

I agree that most gunfighting courses are lacking.

In the first video, think about the speed of which that last move would take place. In the time that it would take him to push his gun back and pull the trigger, the BG would at best be able to deflect the gun, if even strike it at all. He's not going to just keep probing, I would make a bet that his next step if he didn't make contact would be to make a shot anyways, the noise itself would possibly give him an opportunity to turn into the BG.

Having a BG come on your back blindside like that is a baaad day, so he's basically trying to get a shot off and create an opportunity for himself. Odds are by doing that he's going to make contact somewhere on the body and the bullet will too, which most BG's don't like being shot.

The only other option is that he do nothing at all or try and create space by stepping away from the BG. That's just playing into the BG's hands, so using the pistol like that is ingenious.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I would LOVE to hear more about the second one. I don't pretend to be an expert...but an interested student...and I can't come up with what the heck he's doing there.:confused:....
Well ... I'm a little "circumspect" re: his technique in both vids.

He's an "expert" and current; I'm not ... he's doing it for a living; I'm not. I used to teach it to newb's and some more experienced individuals -- but not today. I've been to schools, both private and government and received high-end training. So much for my "credentials".

The first VID: I am reluctant to get that close (his move/lean forward -- jam the pistol into the BG scenario) unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. Lots of criminals have knives -- more dangerous than a firearm in hand to hand grapple. If you're stuck, you're stuck .... but if I can move/lean back -- or hold my ground -- I'll take that option while deploying my weapon. KEEP IT SIMPLE !!!

It's too damn easy for a skilled opponent (and many BG's w/ a prison record are "skilled" in their trade -- many practice disarming their future opponent(s) while killing time inside the walls) to get hold of/grasp your semi-auto and prevent it from cycling and therefore firing. No thanks .. the demo works well on a stationary dummy, but most miscreants are neither "dummys" nor stationary. I'm dubious in a "real world" scenario -- as most law-abiding people are NOT trained to grapple.

The second VID: WTF ??? Again, I think it's poor technique for the average person. It "may" make you "harder" to hit from the perspective of an attacking criminal ... but it also makes it MUCH HARDER for you to hit YOUR target. And if you can't hit your target -- why even bother carrying/using a firearm ???

For the average person -- and understand the concept of "average" ... you don't do this every day nor do it for a "living" ... you're not walking around "mentally prepared" for a criminal attack ... you have two choices, in one man's opinion.

1. Move to cover/safer location while deploying your weapon ... or ...
2. Attack: point & shoot (sometimes referred to as "instinctive" shooting) or alternatively think: "front sight in a fight" -- front sight on target and shoot and hit the object of your attention.

Bottom line: Stop the attack from progressing ... KEEP IT SIMPLE.

Time is of the essence and most people aren't up to the mental demands of the situation. If you have a simple plan and simple, practiced options (kinda sounds like an approach to flying ?), your chances of successfully defending yourself and surviving go up exponentially.

Again ... I don't have all the answers. If any of YOU do .. let us know. I'll bring a pen and paper and we'll get it all down.

Just my $20 worth ... :)
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Nobody else ... ??? Buehler ?? Buehler ??

Heck, I thought we had the makings of a good discussion goin' down ... :slaphappy

I KNOW we have some cops/LEO's out here ... I kinda wonder where YOU come down on all of this based on your experience & training ...

I'm interested in what YOU think -- not your respective PD's policy. :confused:
 

Zissou

Banned
Q.How do you know who won the knife fight?
A. The guy who bleeds to death last


I dont think Gabe is encouraging anyone to close with the BG, I think the clip shows what do IF you were jumped or caught offguard at close range.

Are you familiar with the Tueller drill? aka 21 Foot rule?
 

Zissou

Banned
Semi Auto's can be stopped from cycling, true.

Making the best of a bad situation is to cant the weapon so the slide doesnt short stroke on you or get clothing caught in it.

As for the BG manually stopping it? Well one round is going off for sure, the one in the chamber. I know there are men who could grab it after taking one to the gut, but shooting him in the gut once is better than nothing.

Its important to train weapon retention skills for the above mentioned reasons.

If anyone is interested, Ive found the "twist and rip" technique best for defeating a BG's grip on my gun. Ive done it many times during FOF training at CQD, DARC, and in the Navy.

Twist and Rip: Cant the weapon 90 degrees, and rip back towards you stomach while trying to get rds off.

Either way you look at it there are no good things that can come of a confrontation where the BG closes the gap and gets inside knife range.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor

The first VID: I am reluctant to get that close (his move/lean forward -- jam the pistol into the BG scenario) unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary. Lots of criminals have knives -- more dangerous than a firearm in hand to hand grapple. If you're stuck, you're stuck .... but if I can move/lean back -- or hold my ground -- I'll take that option while deploying my weapon. KEEP IT SIMPLE !!!
This is my own opinion, but I prefer the lean into method. At that close of a range, leaning away only helps the BG as him leaning forward puts him into a stronger more dominant position. To test that out, stand right next to a wall, lean away from it, and push. Next, lean in to it and push. Which one is better?

In addition, if the BG did have a knife, you're gonna get cut either way, but leaning into him might put him off balance enough to reduce the severity or placement odds. Leaning away allows him to step into you, strengthening his thrust or slash with a knife which he may not have had when you leaned into him.

I think what isn't taken from that video is the apparent force he would be projecting on his opponent from his own body weight as he shoots. It would be kind of hard to do that against a stationary dummy and demonstrate the moves for a video at the same time.

It's too damn easy for a skilled opponent (and many BG's w/ a prison record are "skilled" in their trade -- many practice disarming their future opponent(s) while killing time inside the walls) to get hold of/grasp your semi-auto and prevent it from cycling and therefore firing. No thanks .. the demo works well on a stationary dummy, but most miscreants are neither "dummys" nor stationary. I'm dubious in a "real world" scenario -- as most law-abiding people are NOT trained to grapple.
Again, this is my opinion, but I think if the video continued, it would be that he's not trying to teach grappling as much as creating space. One shot at a BG would cause that split second that would be needed to maneuver away from the threat.

Grappling with a guy with a knife is a bad day all around, so that split second shot would give you an edge. And even if the guy can grab the slide, the shot will still go off that's in the barrel, and that one shot may be all you need.

The second VID: WTF ??? Again, I think it's poor technique for the average person. It "may" make you "harder" to hit from the perspective of an attacking criminal ... but it also makes it MUCH HARDER for you to hit YOUR target. And if you can't hit your target -- why even bother carrying/using a firearm ???

For the average person -- and understand the concept of "average" ... you don't do this every day nor do it for a "living" ... you're not walking around "mentally prepared" for a criminal attack ... you have two choices, in one man's opinion.
I think these responses would be abnormal for the average person who didn't practice it. I know that I'm a pretty good shot but if I did this with no previous experience would make it hard for me to place a round where I wanted.

Like you said, average person, no. Average person that practices this, sure, it could work, and that could might be all that someone needed.

Bottom line: Stop the attack from progressing ... KEEP IT SIMPLE.
And that's the whole premise, these are just more tricks to help stop it. :D
 
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