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"Clashing Military Cultures"

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DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
I've read alot of discussion on this thread before commenting and before this thread is locked I just have a few things to say. One thing I have only seemed mentioned minimally is the possibilty of conflict in Asia. Look at the current situation between China and Japan, all the tension there. Then of course, how do the Tawainese people feel, and to what length are they willing to carry out their goals? Where does the US stand in this picture? And has no one remembered that North Korea is getting pretty pissed at us? All of these would be (comparably) conventional wars which both the F-22 and B-2 could seriously provide alot of help in.

Another thing that people have failed to mention much truly is the fact that countries don't mess with us and are influenced because of what we have in our military. If, say in 10+ years down the road we are still relying on 1980s technology and aircraft, some of the shimmer on our sword will certainly lessen. Certainly you can't argue that some of the reason we forward deploy is to "show-off" our military presence. That was, in reality, the ONLY goal of Roosevelt's Great White Fleet, just to show off our strength. Certainly the F/A-22 is, in some sense meant to add to the glimmer that is the US military's sword.

Finally, just because we're not ordering these planes in mass numbers now, they could be later. It is good to invest the money in technology so that down the road who knows what might happen with what we know now as a result of all the stealth programs. The Air Force, regardless of how you view them as a military organization are damn good at producing and implementing technology. We do need technology to be constantly researched, because as someone said earlier, we should always be at least one step up on everyone else.

Now I'm off my soap box, and I apologize in advance for not having the exact knowledge that many of you posess about stealth technologies, but this is my view on the subject.
 

Jolly Roger

Yes. I am a Pirate.
UInavy said:
Can I get a thread split here?!?!?!?!?!

Whoop! Whoop!

Back to the original thread subject. This clash will always be. It has been since the establishment of the Continental Army and Navy. It will be this way until judgement day. Even if all branches were unified, this would still go on. It goes on in within the Navy its self, most you know this better than I. Does the job still get done? Yes. So as A4s likes to say, "Ob la de, ob la da, life goes on." :D :icon_wink (Since I quoted A4s I had to put in the requisite number of smilies)
 

ben4prez

Well-Known Member
pilot
This should be useful for spreading some more light on the subject from someone very close to the original article...but with a different viewpoint. I recieved this in an email thread from a discussion among former students of the USMC command and staff college about the same article as the original in this thread, and it was written by an AF one-star (name has been removed)

Kind of long, but well worth it for anyone interested in this topic more indepth.

> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:08 PM
> To: 'Peters'
> Subject: FW: CLASHING MILITARY CULTURES
> Ralph,
> Wow...I must say this article seems way over the top. Geez, I'm
> genuinely shocked that you've reacted this way to my note to you
about
> your earlier piece. I can assure you that I wasn't "lobbying" you -
is
> that really what
> you thought? Until I read today's article, I would have thought the
> notion
> of "lobbying" Ralph Peters to be preposterous. But if you want to
talk
> about lobbying, no one does it better than the U.S. Marine Corps.
Just
> ask them. Believe me, the Air Force is a rank amateur vis-à-vis the
> Marine Corps in the lobbying business!!
> Speaking of "old" aircraft, I assume you know when the USAF B-52s
were
> built or, for that matter, the F-15s and F-16s we have these days....
> But more importantly, isn't the Marines main aviation priority the
> V-22 Osprey? It has a fascinating record... Still, it may be the
right
> answer for them, but the point is that it isn't exactly a low-tech -
> or inexpensive
> - solution to a mobility problem. I'm amazed it wasn't referenced in
> your article.... Moreover, didn't the Marines get the Super Hornet,
> and aren't
> they buying the Joint Strike Fighter? (And there are other
USAF-funded
> programs for which Marine aviation is getting the benefit.) Was none
> of this mentioned to you?
> And what "pressing need" - exactly - is being denied them by the Air
> Force?
> What exactly has the Air Force turned a "blind eye" to? Amphibious
> assault
> doctrine?
> And what's this about the Air Force being "morally bankrupt"? Is that
> what you really want to say about 360,000 mostly-young Americans
> serving their country all over the world? I don't think that many of
> our most energetic critics in the Army or Marine Corps would say
that.
> Yes, we were deeply humiliated by Darleen Drulyan and Tom
> Fiscus....but the Air Force had nothing to do with the Abu Ghraib
mess
> (except that now airmen have had to be detailed to serve as guards
> there). In fact, no USAF people have been accused of torturing or
> killing any detainees in Guantanamo or Afghanistan or anywhere. Is
the
> Army or the Marine Corps making claims of moral superiority in these
> cases? I would suggest to you that these latter misconduct events
have
> had far more adverse consequences to the U.S. effort in the GWOT than
> anything any airman did.
> I'd also add that we have had nobody who refused missions
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/05/iraq.reservists/index.html
> (In
> fact, there are 2,500 airmen seconded to the Army for convoy duty in
> Iraq...and none of them have refused dangerous missions to my
> knowledge.) Moreover, before you moralize about services, compare
> rates of drug abuse, desertion, or any other criminal behavior. I
> think you will find that your Air Force runs a relatively clean
> operation; in fact, none of the services are "morally bankrupt"...
> Ralph, you don't need to seize the rhetoric of the extreme left to
> make your points...and it is perfectly legitimate for you or anyone
to
> question things like the F/A-22...it ought to be scrutinized like
> every other aspect of national defense.
> But why should the other services be exempt from scrutiny? I think
> it's sad that you conclude that any critique of the land component
> performance is "slander." Slander? Is that really the right word for
> any disagreement with Army dogma? At one time you were a critic of
> some of the things that the Army did... And there are quite a few
> soldiers and Marines who firmly believe in critiquing their own
> performance...and welcome such critiques from whatever sources.
That's
> the genius of the American military, the ability to question
> assumptions and scrutinize performance.
> It is a legitimate question as to why we are having so much
difficulty
> with an insurgency the land component leaders tell us is about 20,000
> in strength versus what, 110,000 soldier and Marines? Ok, there may
be
> bona fide reasons that even with that kind of advantage, success
isn't
> in the cards for the near term. But isn't it still fair question as
to
> whether the forces are properly organized, trained, and equipped - as
> to whether there
> might be some way we can do better? Shouldn't we try to determine if
> the
> current strategy is the right one? Is it wrong for me or others in
the
> Air
> Force to be concerned about soldiers and Marines being killed and
> maimed every day?
> Hypersensitivity to asking legitimate questions about the conduct of
> the war is not the way to save the lives of young troopers going into
> harms' way.
> You advocate silence as we watch our comrades in arms die, but that's
> just wrong. Challenging assumptions is not challenging the personal
> courage of individual soldiers and Marines, rather it is intended to
> try avoid losing even one of their lives unnecessarily. Maybe you are
> right and the Army and Marines are doing everything perfectly and
> there are no better answers, but that doesn't mean it is Ok to
> question the morality and patriotism of those who ask tough
questions.
> Asking hard questions makes us better...exempting the Army and the
> Marine Corps from such queries does them a disservice.
> Ralph, let me say this as a friend and admirer: you were very wrong
to
> disparage the courage of people serving in your Air Force...that is
> not the Ralph Peters I know and respect. Moreover, you really don't
> know these young people or the sacrifices they have made and make
> every day. I don't know what this Colonel Davis told you, but there
> are a lot of soldiers and Marines with combat time who are pretty
> happy with our Air Force, and who would disagree with you
> vociferously.
> You are upset because the Air Force takes care of its people better
> than the other services. Guilty as charged. But why does it make you
> so unhappy that anyone serving their country has a decent place to
> live and work?
> Would it be such a crime if Army and Marine families could have a
> similar standard?
> Maybe one reason the USAF has such low rates of drug abuse and other
> misconduct is the environment we provide for our people. Maybe it's a
> reason we always meet our recruiting targets (and recruiting the kind
> of people the USAF mission requires isn't easy). Perhaps our sister
> services could learn something from us.
> And, by the way, take a look at the senior officer housing in the
Army
> and the Navy (though can't honestly tell you I've been in a Marine
> flag officer's quarters)...believe me, we have nothing to compare
with
> some of the mansions I've seen just on the other side of the river
> here.
> On more important subjects, you obviously are not concerned about
> China or any of the other potential peer competitors...and I
sincerely
> hope you are right...but I think you ought to look at the literature
> (and this may surprise you, but many thoughtful soldiers and Marines
> are concerned about China as well...ask the Marines in Okinawa).
> It may be, as you suggest, that the Army and Marines are wise to
> prepare to fight replays of Iraq in the future. I just don't think
> that that is the likely scenario; indeed, I think that those who do
> believe that are, in essence, already re-fighting the proverbial
"last
> war" - but that is a debate we ought to be able to have without a lot
> of name-calling.
> Regardless, as a Nation we just can't assume that all future wars
will
> be Iraq redux...or that everyone will bury their airplanes.
> I'll be the first to say that the Air Force has its problems (and,
> true, many of them are self-inflicted). We are "down", and - like you
> - everyone
> is seizing the opportunity to kick us. In many respects, the Air
Force
> is
> being taken to school as to its naiveté about parochialism.
> Nevertheless, I will openly say that I believe that you and all of
our
> critics are indeed making real headway, and may well succeed in
> deconstructing the Air Force as you desire. The result will be not a
> bunch
> of Air Force deaths that you seem to want to see (how many Air Force
> people need to die before the service has "courage" in your view?).
> Rather, the sad truth is that the deaths will be of the soldiers and
> Marines you believe are better Americans than those wearing Air Force
> blue. It will be a very sad day when the ground forces of this
country
> find out what it is like to try to fight without the control of the
> air they have enjoyed for fifty years.
> Still your fan, but very perplexed.... Warm Regards,
 

Mayday

I thought that was the recline!
If that article did indeed get sent to Ralph from an actual AF General, and isn't more internet hype, then bravo, I hope he [Peters] read and published it as "to the editor." I'd say it completely encapsulates all the points made on this thread (before it got jacked and re-jacked and almost shredded), and then some.

Excellent
 

zab1001

Well-Known Member
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Split to what?

Seriously, I stopped reading this thread on page one, when all the non-mil people chimed in on "clashing military cultures". Look what happened. Anyway, suggest where to split it and what to call it and I'll split it.
 

zab1001

Well-Known Member
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Ok I accidentally put two posts that should have stayed here in the "religion thread", so I'm going to cut and paste jarhead and pennst8s posts.
 

zab1001

Well-Known Member
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Jarhead wrote:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash
I guess the F-15's being spanked by the Indian Air Force is just a fluke. Or the fact that China is building hundreds of Flankers is just a minor little thing. Are these guys an immediate threat, no. But they represent a pretty big chunk of the world.


if you have access it, do a search for Cope India 04, there is an after action from a Hickem .smil website ... the true answers are there. the F-22 is a badass fighter, but do we really need it? are we going to fight China, Russia, India anytime soon? they are the only countries that have the upgraded Flankers, with Russia the only one with a substantial amount of them. the AF brags about how they take 4 F-22's and regularly spank 12 F-15C's or F-16s in BVR fights ... so do we really need a sh1tload of them? wanting & needing are two different things ... i need a vehicle to haul around my family, i want a Lexus SUV, i can afford Ford Explorer, so i can have money for other things. if we are fighting Russia or China, i think we have a more serious issue at hand, i.e. WW3, nukes. and what happens after the first couple exercises with the French or Israelis and they figure out ways to electronically f*@k with the Raptor BVR (and then selling that techonolgy) forcing WVR where stealth means jacksh1t and a Mig-21bis with Archers & HMS makes the fight fairly equal, then what? or if they or the Chinese figure out a way to manipulate their EW & GCI radars in order to see LO or stealth aircraft? then what? we have already lost a "stealth" F-117 from ground fire (and the inflexibility of the AF, who spun it as that aircraft is old stealth techonolgy). and what happens when those countries develop a A-A armed UAV? then what? the $2billion B-2 & $200million dollar F-22 will be useless, and doing the same things that the F-15, F-16, and F-18 does now. can the US sustain $200million a copy fighter when we loose them due to pilot error or a/c malfunction? what happens when the country we are fighting is too far inland (i.e. Afghan) and the AF has no place to T/O & land it's precious F-22 because nobody wants us flying from their country? what happens when China decides it wants Taiwan back, where is the F-22 gonna fly from? Kadena? my bet is Japan will say "hell no, you aren't dragging us into this war" ... same goes for S. Korea. so where do they fly from? Guam? chuckle. and talking about spinning ... somebody mentioned F/A-22 but F-15E, LOL, comical!

my opinion, we have sunken so much money into the program (like the Osprey & JSF), we can't just drop it, so we stick to 150 or so, and we retain the ability to produce them just in case WW3 breaks out and we really do need them, and the AF continues to buy the F-16 & F-15 (which are both still in production today and are still some of the best fighter/attack on the planet and will continue to be for awhile), and start developing a A-A UAV that will replace all of those aircraft.

just my opinion, i think the article was spot on, and the truth hurts ...

S/F "
 

zab1001

Well-Known Member
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
pennst8 wrote:

"same s***, different year

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To get away from the discussion on "stealth" which I think very few of us are qualified to understand let alone discuss...

Hasn't the USAF been trying to take the lion's share of congressional dollars ever since its inception? I seem to recall learning that back in the late 40's they declared there was no need for a Navy since strategic bombing could win all future wars (google: revolt of the admirals).

Back then their super expensive whiz-bang toy was the B-36... today its the F-22... "
 

zab1001

Well-Known Member
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
btw sorry guys

edit:
and apparently somehow I lost all the posts on however someone was applying religion and not liking japanese people and death counts or whatever.

i'm honestly too tired to care. start a new thread in the war zone if you want.
 

Geese

You guys are dangerous.
UInavy said:
Well, excpet to be entertained by 12th graders justifying the development cost of the F-22. C'mon! Thats just good fun!


Well, if the F-22 program never existed, how expensive do you think the JSF program would be? More, less, unchanged? I'd probably wager on more...
 

Geese

You guys are dangerous.
UInavy said:
I'd guess more also. Did I give the impression that I thought otherwise?

(And I definitely wasn't referring to you in my post.)
No, I'm not saying that you were giving that impression.

Justifying the cost of the F22 is something I doubt anyone here could really do though, its not that it was worth it or not worth it, we just don't know the extent to which it has affected other programs and how many technologies and processes have sprouted from it. I agree that it's pretty rediculous to try and say one way or the other as if it's set in stone and we know all....
 
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