• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Civilian Maritime Tailhook Aviation

HooverPilot

CODPilot
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor

That is the rub. Pax change the equation. Do the contact Helo's do pax transfers? Honest question, I don't know the answer.

The problem for CODs is that when one breaks on deployment, you just lost 50% of your assets. The ship generally wants 2 hits a day. In a lot of theaters, that means a two plane requirement for 6 months. Lots of maintenance required. That contractor overtime costs a lot. Navy maintainers are a fixed cost.

I agree that this could be contracted, I don't believe it could be contracted for less than present day costs.
 

SynixMan

HKG Based Artificial Excrement Pilot
pilot
Contributor
I think the S-3 argument I heard was there are a lot of (relatively) low time airframes already designed for a carrier sitting in the bone yard. That translates to a decent startup idea.
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
My vote is for contract COD flying US-3's......and I would take that job in a heartbeat come the day I leave AD

Can you fit an aircraft engine (in the can) into a US-3? If not, we will still require C-2 (or new aircraft with ability to transport a canned engine)
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
BzB - I used to talk with the US-3 guys all the time in Westpac and rode her a couple of times. The US-3 had a much greater range (plus refuel) than the C-2 but could not carry nearly as much cargo and only a 2 pax.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Can you fit an aircraft engine (in the can) into a US-3? If not, we will still require C-2 (or new aircraft with ability to transport a canned engine)

I suppose that would definitely be a limiting factor. Can helos vertrep them crated? Either way it would probably be very inefficient to use a helo for that job I guess
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
I suppose that would definitely be a limiting factor. Can helos vertrep them crated? Either way it would probably be very inefficient to use a helo for that job I guess

I can't speak for a 53, but an H-60 can not vertrep a F-18 motor.
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
I know it can be carried in the cabin of a 53. There was a mishap in Bahrain in the 90's where a 53 was off-loading a Hornet motor and the aircraft lurched sideways. A crewman was killed when the motor crushed him against the side of the aircraft.
 

HooverPilot

CODPilot
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
View attachment 13043

In what ways would US-3s offer advantages over the C-2s (certainly not in cargo/pax capacity, or range/endurance???). Just askin' as an ol' C-1A COD driver ...not that familiar w/ C-2/US-3 types! :slug_125:
BzB :sleep_125


View attachment 13043


BzB,

The US-3 would offer much what Hal mentioned - increased range & speed. The cargo capacity of the US-3 would be much less & the pax ability is nil. The paradrop mission couldn't be done by the US-3 either. The Viking is a great jet and was awesome to fly - I would love to fly it again - but it isn't a very good answer to the COD mission.
 

HooverPilot

CODPilot
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think the S-3 argument I heard was there are a lot of (relatively) low time airframes already designed for a carrier sitting in the bone yard. That translates to a decent startup idea.

The S-3 has been discussed several times because they have a huge amount of life left and quite a few are in a "ready" status in the desert. I'm talking nearly 11,000 hours of life and lots of traps remaining. The CPH for the Viking was one of the lowest in the airwing too. To bring the airframe back just for the COD mission would be a mistake, it couldn't fill the desired capabilities. Now to bring it back for a return to the organic tanking role, now your talking!
 

AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
The S-3 has been discussed several times because they have a huge amount of life left and quite a few are in a "ready" status in the desert. I'm talking nearly 11,000 hours of life and lots of traps remaining. The CPH for the Viking was one of the lowest in the airwing too. To bring the airframe back just for the COD mission would be a mistake, it couldn't fill the desired capabilities. Now to bring it back for a return to the organic tanking role, now your talking!

Being a member of the unwashed, I'm not privy to some of the inside details but what was the reason for ditching the S-3 as an organic tanker? Was it just parts/supply/maintenance/logistics money or was there something else? It would seem like just deploying one or two US-3s to a carrier -- similar to the COD -- for tanker/small cargo would provide a much needed capability to each air wing. It's never made sense to me why the Navy relies on the USAF for refueling.
 

helolumpy

Apprentice School Principal
pilot
Contributor
Being a member of the unwashed, I'm not privy to some of the inside details but what was the reason for ditching the S-3 as an organic tanker? Was it just parts/supply/maintenance/logistics money or was there something else? It would seem like just deploying one or two US-3s to a carrier -- similar to the COD -- for tanker/small cargo would provide a much needed capability to each air wing. It's never made sense to me why the Navy relies on the USAF for refueling.

The S-3 was never envisioned as an organic tanker when it came to the fleet; the KA-6 had the role.
When the A-6's went away, something needed to take over the job.

Tanking ability isn't the reason the S-3 was retired, the ASW retirement of the Strike Group had more to do with it than anything else. As proof the S-3 had all the ASW gear removed for the last few years of its life. It could still do the ASuW mission but with the introduction of the Super Hornet and putting MH-60R (with ISAR) and MH-60S helos on the carrier, the S-3 became expendable.

As to the US-3 potential, while it does have some advantages over the C-2, these advantages do not offset the additional requirements (spare parts, trained maintainers, aircrew) of keeping the S-3 airframe active in the fleet. It came down to a cost analysis of keeping the S-3 flying. The costs exceeded the benefits, therefore it was killed.

As for the Air Force tanking, it's simple, a KC-10/135 has the capability to pass enough gas to refuel an entire strike package. The S-3 couldn't pass enough gas to serve as a mission tanker for an entire strike. It could refuel a few aircraft after takeoff or prior to landing, but not 10+ aircraft all needing lots of gas for a long flight.

With the Air Force serving as JFACC/TFACC it puts the requirement on themselves to provide tanking. You want naval air? You need to provide a big-wing tanker to get it.
 

FlyingOnFumes

Nobel WAR Prize Aspirant
Being a member of the unwashed, I'm not privy to some of the inside details but what was the reason for ditching the S-3 as an organic tanker? Was it just parts/supply/maintenance/logistics money or was there something else? It would seem like just deploying one or two US-3s to a carrier -- similar to the COD -- for tanker/small cargo would provide a much needed capability to each air wing. It's never made sense to me why the Navy relies on the USAF for refueling.

I think it was previously mentioned that the purpose of organic tanking is to give enough sips to get back aboard and not fill up an entire aircraft's fuel tanks.
 
Top