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CA Mircrostamping bill passes.

Herc_Dude

I believe nicotine + caffeine = protein
pilot
Contributor
In instances of drive-by shootings, where the only evidence at the crime scene may be a casing from a fired bullet, law enforcement will be able to quickly obtain a critical lead.

Yeah, because the gang-banger who does the drive-by bought the gun at the local gun store, filled out all the appropriate paperwork (truthfully, of course), and all we have to do to catch him now is scan the casing. Glad they think this will 'solve gun crimes' and 'prevent gun violence'... (BTW, how the fvck will this prevent anything, will they be too scared of being tracked?.... I don't get it). More feel good legislation that accomplishes nothing (accept votes, I guess).
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
Jeesus H. F#$^ing Christ, I am INCREDIBLY angry about this, the biggest thing I hate about CA is that if you try to advocate gun rights of any sort (especially as a college student now) than you are treated as more of a freak than a freakin' closed minded hippie vegansexual (yes that's real) philosophy major...

This really leaves a bitter taste in mouth as I thought there was no way that this could ever be passed, and when I got the "urgent alert" phone call from the NRA to call Ah-nold about this issue, I did nothing and let the op. slip by...

This is one step closer to holding a gun owner responsible when their gun is stolen and used in a crime...
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
At the risk of bringing much anger upon myself........what is wrong with this?

It doesn't restrict gun ownership and it doesn't make it harder to get a gun. All it does is identify a bullet as having been fired by a specific gun. If you aren't illegally shooting people or things, why would this bother you? I don't see it as being any different from having a serial number on the gun, a license plate on your car, you fingerprints taken for a security clearance, etc.

I'm not advocating this be adopted nationwide. I'm just curious why everyone is upset with this. I just don't get why this is a problem as I don't see where it interferes with the second amendment.

So no debate from me, I just want to hear your reasoning.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Because you cant change a firing pin, barrel, etc.

If you shoot at a range and leave 1 peice of brass, and some hoodlum reloads using it, or leaves it at a scene as a decoy, they will come for YOU.

Criminals wont follow the law.

Guns have to be made special for CA. More $$$$
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Because you cant change a firing pin, barrel, etc.

If you shoot at a range and leave 1 peice of brass, and some hoodlum reloads using it, or leaves it at a scene as a decoy, they will come for YOU.
OK, that makes sense.
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
From Wikipedia
[edit] Controversy

In general, groups that support gun control legislation favor requiring ballistic imprinting on all new firearms, while groups opposed to gun control oppose any legal requirement for ballistic imprinting technology. Since the technology is unproven, there are no reliable statistics to substantiate how useful the process might really be to law enforcement.
Claims made by proponents of the technology include:
  • Ability to match fired cartridge cases from a crime scene to at least the first registered owner of the firearm
  • Ability to track illegal trade in guns
  • Low cost of implementation; the technology owner claims US$0.25 to US$0.50 per firearm in royalties
  • High reliability; the "nearly as hard as a diamond" firing pin provides long service life
Claims made by the opponents of the technology include:
  • Firearms sold to law-enforcement are exempt, which could cause problems when a police officer's firearm is stolen and/or used in a crime,
  • High costs that must be passed on to customers, increasing cost of firearms, for testing the efficacy of the technique,
  • Legal costs that must be passed on to customers, increasing cost of firearms, for any cases in which the technique causes a failure to ignite primers on cartridges, perhaps leaving a law enforcement officer with a defective gun that fails to fire when most needed, potentially exposing gun manufacturers to class-action law suits for selling defective merchandise
  • Poor reliability, as a firing pin is prone to wear, and any micro-stamping of the firing pin could introduce microscopic crystalline cracks in the firing pin, thereby causing an early failure in the firing pin to occur
  • Ease of defeating the imprinting, by defacing or replacing the firing pin, or simply shooting a large number of rounds through a firearm. Firing pins are normally a replaceable item, requiring replacement if a gun is used to fire many rounds of ammunition.
  • Increasing the likelihood of snapping the end off a firing pin when dry-fired, due to excessive work-hardening of the surface of the firing pin from the initial imprinting of identifying information.
  • Manufacturers could decide that the process is too expensive and decide to halt all handgun sales to regions with microstamping in place.
  • Unscrupulous individual could collect discarded brass from a firing range and salt the microstamped cases around a crime scene, resulting in confusion for investigators and potentially harassment of innocent individuals
  • There's no possibility that this bill would ever cover enough guns to provide the investigative advantage claimed for it by the proponents
  • The technology seems to create identifying mark-makers in tested handguns; experiment has shown the actual transfer process to cartridges is much less reliable than claimed by the proponents or the company which manufactures the marking machinery
[edit] The technique in testing

George G. Krivosta, of the Suffolk County Crime Laboratory in New York, did some research on the firearm microstamping technology offered by NanoTag. In his research, using tagged firing pins in a .22 Long Rifle rifle and a .45 ACP pistol, he found that very few firing pin strikes actually resulted in legible marks, as it was very common for the firing pin to bounce on impact and strike the case more than once, with successive strikes landing slightly off of the original position and obscuring the original strike impression. Out of the first 100 rounds fired using an 8 character alphanumeric code, 54 provided satisfactory markings, while the remaining 46 had at least one illegible character. Smaller print, encoding the make, model, and serial number for a total of 45 characters, resulting in far less clear markings which were difficult to decipher even under ideal circumstances. Subsequent testing was done only with the 8 character coded pin.
The remaining testing was done using 10 different M1911 pistols of various make and age, with the test firing pin being moved from pistol to pistol as groups were fired with standard military type .45 ACP ball ammunition. After each 100 rounds was fired, the pin was removed from the pistol, examined, and placed in the next pistol. After 1000 rounds were fired, the markings on the pin were still readable, though the markings were beginning to soften under the repeated impacts of firing.
The last test involved an intentional defacement of the markings on the pin. The pin was removed (a simple operation taking a few seconds on the M1911), chucked in a power drill, spun, and held against a knife sharpening stone for about 10 seconds. Examination of the pin showed some marking remaining at the very center of the firing pin, so the pin was wiped against the stone three times by hand, which removed all traces of the engraving. The tip was of the pin was then rounded to remove any sharp edges, placed back in the pistol, and fired with 10 rounds. No malfunctions were observed.

[edit] Associated legal issues

In addition to the attacks on the technology itself is a question involving other legal issues. It is illegal in most jurisdictions to remove the serial number, or even to possess a firearm with the serial number removed. The firing pin is a commonly-replaced part, due to breakage, wear, or a desire for increased performance provided by a lower mass pin (see accurize), or to increase safety from inertial slam-fires if the gun is accidentally dropped on its muzzle. With a ballistic fingerprinting law in place, replacement of a properly-marked firing pin would remove the manufacturer's identifying marks on the firearm, introducing the gun owner to legal action for defacing identification marks on the firearm. Sales of used firearms would also be impacted, as a cautious buyer would need to require verification of the imprinting marks, which would require the firing of a case, and an inspection of the fired case with a microscope, or of an inspection of the firing pin point, to read the marks and verify they match the firearm, since it would be possible to swap firing pins in same-model firearms. Simply firing the gun numerous times could also cause the micro-stamping marking on the firing pin to be eroded away with use, which could also become a crime if identifying marks were worn off the firing pin. A high volume shooter, firing multiple tens of thousands of rounds per year could find his gun becoming illegal just from use having eroded away any micro-stamping marks. Additionally, with $0.25 worth of sandpaper, it would be possible for criminals to deface intentionally the surface of the firing pin in a matter of seconds to remove any identifying marks, which would require a microscope to verify had been done. All of these issues pose serious problems which would have to be overcome were the technique to be required by law.
It would also be possible for someone planning a criminal act to obtain fired casings with markings from a shooting range, for planting at the scene of a planned crime, erroneously linking unrelated gun owners to the crime scene to introduce doubt in any subsequent jury trial. As not all bullets recovered from crime scenes are intact, which can prevent matching striations, this twist would introduce considerable confusion in processing and prosecuting criminal cases at the expense of innocent individuals.
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
Because you cant change a firing pin, barrel, etc.

If you shoot at a range and leave 1 piece of brass, and some hoodlum reloads using it, or leaves it at a scene as a decoy, they will come for YOU.

Criminals wont follow the law.

Guns have to be made special for CA. More $$$$

That could be a weakness..... But in that case criminals might be following this law, right? They could be using an older model handgun anyways.

Even if they come after you, that is one more clue for the police. I.e. once they realize it's not you, then the police have a starting place (the range you use) to begin searching for the real suspect.

Even still, if the perp fires more than one bullet, then all rounds have to be from your gun, because if they don't match, it's obvious that they were reloading someone else's brass.

I am with HAL on this, it doesn't seem that big a deal, maybe it is, I can't just see how.
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
Now, I am confused. After reading what raptor posted, and the Wikipedia source article, I see that the primer is marked. Aren't primer's replaced when you reload? If so, how can someone collect brass and cheat the system? I am not directing the comment at you MB, but the opponents arguments listed in the article.
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
Where are you reading that the primer is marked? The primer is in the bullet, it is the firing pin that is marked.

edit: Belay my last
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Primers are replaced when you reload.

This is another gun control thing the bradyites push as "reasonable" but then when have you known police departments to go past the easy answer.

How about the guy who's door gets kicked in at 3am because his brass was found? (brass left as decoy)

Or the money that he spent fighting an overzealous DA who went after the stamp match when they had no other leads?

Nevermind that criminals will just not break the law again.

I would have better/more coherent things to debate if I did not have a few beers in me.

Its not about guns. Its about control.
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
Even if they come after you, that is one more clue for the police. I.e. once they realize it's not you, then the police have a starting place (the range you use) to begin searching for the real suspect.

WEll in that case the anti-gun community has effectively equated gun range patrons with criminal behavior in the mind of the public...
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
Primers are replaced when you reload.

This is another gun control thing the bradyites push as "reasonable" but then when have you known police departments to go past the easy answer.

How about the guy who's door gets kicked in at 3am because his brass was found? (brass left as decoy)

Or the money that he spent fighting an overzealous DA who went after the stamp match when they had no other leads?

Nevermind that criminals will just not break the law again.

I would have better/more coherent things to debate if I did not have a few beers in me.

Its not about guns. Its about control.


But can't all these things happen with fingerprints? You were at a place where a crime was committed. Your fingerprints are found, you get interviewed.

Or if the perp wants to leave a decoy can't he find some brass with your fingerprints on it? I don't know if that is very likely or even possible.

All that being said the plan does seem a little silly. There will still be a million guns out there that can't imprint. Plus, even if a criminal is some how forced to use a new model gun with imprinting, can't he just replace the firing pin or file it down? I know if you filed it too much it the gun won't fire right, but those 8 numbers that make the serial number are so small, even one or two passes with a diamond file would make them illegible, I would think.
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
All that being said the plan does seem a little silly. There will still be a million guns out there that can't imprint. Plus, even if a criminal is some how forced to use a new model gun with imprinting, can't he just replace the firing pin or file it down? I know if you filed it too much it the gun won't fire right, but those 8 numbers that make the serial number are so small, even one or two passes with a diamond file would make them illegible, I would think.

The article I posted above says that 3 seconds with $.25 of sandpaper is enough to remove the microstamping on the firing pin.
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
The article I posted above says that 3 seconds with $.25 of sandpaper is enough to remove the microstamping on the firing pin.

I didn't catch that. So it's even easier than I thought, making this entire thing utterly pointless.
 
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