Budget Cuts and Flight/Simulator Training

[CommodoreMid]

What's your experience with the P-8 sims and overall transition? Just as many issues as the tort?

Sorry for a negative rep, fat fingered on my iPhone.

My last 4 sims have been cancelled for trainer issues. When they work they're great, and of course the plane is money, but it's been a little frustrating to say the least. The transition overall has been great; it's only been the past couple weeks where we seem to be running into issues.

 

[jollygreen07]

And it begins...

 

[zippy]

From the National Defense Magazine:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine....uldSpurMilitarySpendingonVirtualTraining.aspx

I doubt that this potential path with regards to budget cuts surprises anyone, but I thought it would be interesting to see the numbers concerning cost savings and the increase in simulator time (and decrease in flight time) for various communities in the Navy and Air Force.

It's already started to happen- with CNATRA leading the charge. We got a brand new airplane and sims and syllabus to go with them. A lot more events are accomplished in the sims (since they are visual capable unlike the devices they replaced when the T-34 went away) and even then CNATRA almost immediately went through and starting waiving flight events in order to shorten the flight events to complete a student. When I completed primary I had 104hrs.. One of the students recently completed with 64. When talking about production goals, CNATRA lists "Right Cost" as a metric of success.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Wow.....64 hours is pretty short. I think just about all of us from the T-34 syllabus had ~ 100 hrs when we left. Anyway, I feel like a good balance is around 1/3 sim, 2/3 flying in the training environment. That's roughly how it was in the VT's, FRS, and fleet SFWT syllabii. It seems to work, and gives you a proper amount of grooming before doing it in the aircraft, without being repetitive or beating too many sim-isms into your head in the form of habits.

 

[jtmedli]

One of the students recently completed with 64. When talking about production goals, CNATRA lists "Right Cost" as a metric of success.

That's a shame. That stud got screwed.

 

[scoober78]

My last 4 sims have been cancelled for trainer issues. When they work they're great, and of course the plane is money, but it's been a little frustrating to say the least. The transition overall has been great; it's only been the past couple weeks where we seem to be running into issues.

So do you guys "go flying" in the sim when the weather is <500' or is that grounded too...<palmface MPRA, palmface>

 

[lowflier03]

When I was at the WWS the question was asked several times from the wing level and higher about how much training we can possibly do in the sim and completely remove from the helo. They were also looking at how much money it would take to upgrade the sims so that 60-80% of all training could be moved to them...

Don't think this kind of shenanigans is too far off.

 

[kmac]

Wow.....64 hours is pretty short. I think just about all of us from the T-34 syllabus had ~ 100 hrs when we left.

I left Primary with 67.1 hours. I don't think 64 is that short in comparison. I will agree with most here that the sim just doesn't do a good job of simulating the real world interactions of pilots, weather, other pilots, and ATC. The biggest challenge to a primary student in instruments wasn't the sim or the cross-country... it was trying to stay ahead of the aircraft in the Corpus TRACON with all of the radio chatter, flipping of pubs, and trying to follow instructions.

 

[armada1651]

I know the newer Hornet/Rhino/Growler sims can be linked up, etc, etc. Out of curiosity, I would imagine they would be good for BVR stuff and working various employment timelines, but relatively "low-fidelity" in the WVR regime. Any pointy-nosed guys care to chime in?

For anything that's feel-intensive, the sim is not very useful at all. That includes ball-flying, BFM, roll-ins, etc. It is good for procedures and switchology, but beyond that...not so much.

 

[xj220]

There is an undo button.

My phone was acting weird so I wasn't sure if it went through, but it looks like it did.

 

[xj220]

How are the sims that the commercial guys use? I hear they have some pretty high fidelity stuff.

 

[scoober78]

How are the sims that the commercial guys use? I hear they have some pretty high fidelity stuff.

I've got some 737 sim time...one of the airline guys please feel free to chime in here...and here are my thoughts. The fidelity is quite good for the things that airliners do...instrument approaches, emergency procedures, airways nav etc...From a technical POV, they are full video (commercial ones with Google Earth imagery) and also have significant motion to simulate aircraft pitch, roll, yaw, braking, accel...etc...The P-3 Level D sims, which I would say are 90% of the quality of the front line commercial sims now, are great at simulating these things as well. Essentially, the fidelity and workload simulation is limited only by the desire and creativity of the instructor.

 

[usmarinemike]

For anything that's feel-intensive, the sim is not very useful at all. That includes ball-flying, BFM, roll-ins, etc. It is good for procedures and switchology, but beyond that...not so much.

I think this is the only aspect that can't get replaced. Everything else can be replicated with current technology with enough work and imagination. I would say that CNATRA is the LAST place that simulation intensive training should get any more intensive than it is because that's where you're learning to FLY. Most of the mission skills where you're learning to fight can get taught in the sim as long as they're not moved over 100%, and those involved really strive to get realistic training (ie linked with other platforms, actual JTACs in their own simulators, etc.).

 

[phrogpilot73]

(ie linked with other platforms, actual JTACs in their own simulators, etc.).

That's where the future is. The biggest complaint of our simulator (the MSAT, and the Marine funded SAVT) is that it doesn't respond to rapidly changing TTPs among aircrew so the aircraft profiles we have are the aircraft profiles we have. We've received funding to upgrade our system to be a classified system, and it's the first step towards NCTE. Second step is making the MSAT a program of record in order to continue the upgrades necessary to be able to link to the aircraft simulators at Cherry Point and Oceana. That request/white paper/proposal left our command and has made it up to the big wigs in DC. Last word I heard was that they've made it their #2 priority.

Synthetic training is here to stay gents.

 

[hscs]

The thing about this - it requires an upfront cost to make money later down the road. If we don't have money in the first place - then how are we going to spend some to improve the sims and cut back on flight time.

Biggest thing that I say about this - people are lazy in the sim. The scenario isn't taken as seriously, and sims do not do a good job of letting Murphy take over the problem.