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Big Deal, happens all the time in AK

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Huh. Never heard "Land ASAP" referred to as landing criteria. Just "Land ASAP."

I don't know your NATOPS, but I'm guessing the reason you haven't heard it as a "Landing Criteria/Criterion" is because you only have one. Most other stuff ends with "EJECT" (or whatever the proper phraseology is). For Maritime and helos, there's several criteria, so it's talked about more (and noted in the beginning of the EP section).
 

usmarinemike

Solidly part of the 42%.
pilot
Contributor
I guess it applies across the board, but for us, a big HAC discussion is determining where you're going to put down based on what the EP is, and based on your landing criteria: Land ASAP, ASA practical or land IMMEDIATELY.

Girl sick in back =/= land on the beach.... FAIL.

Just for S&G's...Whats the definition of "land immediately" and how does it differ from land asap and/or crashing?
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Just for S&G's...Whats the definition of "land immediately" and how does it differ from land asap and/or crashing?

In layman's terms, "Land Immediately" means to land where you're at, even if you can't make a "safe" landing. For example, if you're 5 miles from the beach, you would just put it down in the water. "Land ASAP" means land at the first place where a safe landing can be made. It might seem like a small difference, but for helos and dealing with things like transmissions that are incumbent on your survival, it makes a difference.
 

Banjo33

AV-8 Type
pilot
Aside from his ridiculousness on the radios (which isn't enough to yank his license), I'm missing what FARs were broken/why this was illegal? Maybe endangering his passengers...but he didn't "crash" and off airport landings are technically legal. Poor preflight planning (he landed on a beach that he can't takeoff from) but that's not technically "illegal" either. Doucher, yes...legally deserving to have his license pulled? I'm not so sure.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
^^^ What Gatordev said about urgency.

Land immediately ~ eject/bailout

Some helo NATOPS manuals include phrases about "trees or water" being a last resort or "survival of the occupants." Helicopter controlled crash into trees ranks up there with parachuting into a forest. Controlled ditching and overwater bailout are also about equal on the list of fun things to do.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
In layman's terms, "Land Immediately" means to land where you're at, even if you can't make a "safe" landing. For example, if you're 5 miles from the beach, you would just put it down in the water. "Land ASAP" means land at the first place where a safe landing can be made. It might seem like a small difference, but for helos and dealing with things like transmissions that are incumbent on your survival, it makes a difference.

So is Land Immediately more of an autorotation thing (I'm thinking engine or transmission failure) where you really don't have the option to land ASAP? I would think a Land ASAP in a helo would include the farmer's field right below you- whereas at least in the T-34 world that is the nearest suitable runway. Is that a wrong assumption?


Edit: Jim answered my question nicely.
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
Para examp-lo:

Phrog: "Land immediately is self-explanatory."

TH-57: "Land immediately means execute a landing without delay. The primary consideration is to assure the survival of the occupants."

The great thing about choppering is that, depending on where you are/what you're doing (METT-TSLABCBBD for the Kool-Aid drinkers), the easiest thing to do for most EPs is simply land and figure it out on deck. Due to our normal altitudes and ability to land most anywhere, most of the time you can be safely on terra ferma before anything progresses beyond the initial indications. Land, troubleshoot...and if it's too bad, call the ODO and begin the maintenance effort. No biggie. In fact, most Marine chopper dudes will always carry a small overnight bag with some food/water/clothes, as it is a matter of when (not if) you will be an overnight resident of the Hotel Boeing or the Chateau de Sikorsky. (Why this always seems to happen in the Yuma Range complex is beyond me... Must have something to do with the engine failures I always seemed to get over LZ-53 in the RAG or Tree Field in the HTs...)

Now, EPs over water, deep in Indian Country, flying through mountainous terrain, etc: These are the scenarios upon which HAC boards are built. This is why they pay us the big bucks...albeit not as much as DynCorp :)

My only regret at Miramar is that I never had a "Land ASA Possible" EP over Torrey Pines during the Buick Open :)
 

BACONATOR

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Para examp-lo:

Phrog: "Land immediately is self-explanatory."

TH-57: "Land immediately means execute a landing without delay. The primary consideration is to assure the survival of the occupants."

The great thing about choppering is that, depending on where you are/what you're doing (METT-TSLABCBBD for the Kool-Aid drinkers), the easiest thing to do for most EPs is simply land and figure it out on deck. Due to our normal altitudes and ability to land most anywhere, most of the time you can be safely on terra ferma before anything progresses beyond the initial indications. Land, troubleshoot...and if it's too bad, call the ODO and begin the maintenance effort. No biggie. In fact, most Marine chopper dudes will always carry a small overnight bag with some food/water/clothes, as it is a matter of when (not if) you will be an overnight resident of the Hotel Boeing or the Chateau de Sikorsky. (Why this always seems to happen in the Yuma Range complex is beyond me... Must have something to do with the engine failures I always seemed to get over LZ-53 in the RAG or Tree Field in the HTs...)

Now, EPs over water, deep in Indian Country, flying through mountainous terrain, etc: These are the scenarios upon which HAC boards are built. This is why they pay us the big bucks...albeit not as much as DynCorp :)

My only regret at Miramar is that I never had a "Land ASA Possible" EP over Torrey Pines during the Buick Open :)

Exactly the discussion I was alluding to, but apparently that was somehow douchebaggery, and counter-productive to my reputation... ??

Our land immediately is the same as what you quoted for the 57. I believe OPNAV is also what you quoted for the phrog.

You are absolutely right about putting it down and figuring it out.

That being said to continue/echo the last part of your post, in an operational environment, as Naval Aviators we are likely operating off of ships or in combat environments in the desert (treat sand = water), so that complicates things. This discussion is a good one, because it gets you thinking and sets almost a precedent based on knowledge when you lack the experience so when something pops up, you can make a quick, educated decision on how to proceed, especially when overwater or in bad-guy country.

(again, NOT directed at Kbay. I won't pretend to tell him about choppering, but just to further the conversation for the ejection types/SNAs)
 

jt71582

How do you fly a Clipper?
pilot
Contributor
Ah good ole "Tree Field"...I've been seeing a lot of her lately. =)
 

jt71582

How do you fly a Clipper?
pilot
Contributor
I'm confused. What else would it mean?

Forgive me, I'm a little hazy...literally drank the bar out of Jack last night...ouch.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
... Poor preflight planning (he landed on a beach that he can't takeoff from) but that's not technically "illegal" either. ...
Yes it is, "technically" or otherwise.

Sec. 91.103

Preflight action.

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include--
(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;
(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:
(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and
(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.


Since he didn't declare an emergecny he had to abide by the requirements of 91.103.
 
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