He is not full of shit. I don't know what the phrog checks entail, but I'm also not going to pretend to know. I was told long ago that it's a check list, not a do list. Challenge and response may work well for phrog types but not everywhere.
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Best and worst experiences with flight instructors
- Thread starter Random Task
- Start date
He is not full of shit. I don't know what the phrog checks entail, but I'm also not going to pretend to know. I was told long ago that it's a check list, not a do list. Challenge and response may work well for phrog types but not everywhere.
I tried this experiment with onwings and it worked out surprisingly well. I told them that if I said the reply part when they were not quite done saying the challenge part then it wasn't because I was trying to get them flustered, it was because I thought they were getting good enough at the checklists that we could speed them up a little (but not too fast). And that if that item was good then I wanted them to move on to the next item without messing up their cadence. But if we made a mistake then we'd stop and do it right. The guys took to this pretty well and we could get stuff done a little quicker and still avoid doing anything dumb.
Random non-flight-instruction story. Sometimes I shoot clay pigeons for fun but I'm not very good at it. About a month ago with a group that included some friends of friends, one of the others just couldn't hold himself back anymore and started offering me pointers and tips. Turned out this guy was a pretty good coach- good technical knowledge, good understanding of common errors, lots of good techniques in his bag of tricks to fix those errors, and a good delivery. (It helps that my own disposition makes me able to bite my tongue when taking criticism but that doesn't mean I like it. Anyway...) This got me thinking a bit and reminded me of what I already knew- that it's hard work to do a good job instructing and it takes continuous effort too.
Wow phrogpilot73, bitter much?
Sure it's not all because of time in chocks, , and sure there are things that can bite you in the ass. Sorry I don't feel the need to explain every nuanced benefit. The fact is, there aren't THAT many things in the jet to have to go through that you can't remember. We have acronyms and mnemonics for most of the checks, and the only person to do challenge and response with is yourself. Sure, I still have a paper checklist on my kneeboard and look at it if I need to.
But hey, maybe that's because one "chest-thumping 'I'm a jet guy' retard" is just smarter than two idiot phrog guys put together. I'm sure none of them have ever crashed due to pilot error.
Sure it's not all because of time in chocks, , and sure there are things that can bite you in the ass. Sorry I don't feel the need to explain every nuanced benefit. The fact is, there aren't THAT many things in the jet to have to go through that you can't remember. We have acronyms and mnemonics for most of the checks, and the only person to do challenge and response with is yourself. Sure, I still have a paper checklist on my kneeboard and look at it if I need to.
But hey, maybe that's because one "chest-thumping 'I'm a jet guy' retard" is just smarter than two idiot phrog guys put together. I'm sure none of them have ever crashed due to pilot error.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I'm not arguing that I know everything about every checklist out there. However, I seem to remember a number of mishaps that I've seen on the mishap summary, combined with a number of near-mishaps in approach that lead to procedural errors... Yup, it's a checklist - how do you check it if you don't read it? When you have a mishap, are you ready to justify to the JAGMAN (not the AMB) why you "memorized" it, vice read it?
Even in Intermediate Jet/Advanced Strike, we were taught to go from memory, referring to the checklist occasionally to make sure we didn't miss anything. Takeoff and landing checks were always over ICS, but never challenge-response.
Heads would explode if you attempted to do all of the checklists challenge-response style.
Heads would explode if you attempted to do all of the checklists challenge-response style.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Nope, just remembering that there are young guys on this board, who may take your word as "fact".
Yup. Now I'm better. Bring it bitch. I chose Phrogs, whether you believe it or not. I guess that makes me an idiot.
If you were a rockstar in your community, you probably wouldn't have been sent on an involuntary FAC tour. That deployed. Twice. Just sayin'.
My statement stands. Enjoy the AMB/JAGMAN.
This is all I'm saying. I'm not expecting you to challenge and response yourself. But just simply memorizing is a recipe for disaster. Well documented.
I reference the checklist during lulls in activity. Then again, I am a new guy.
Wow, nice response. I would also like to tell Squeeze that he is full of shit and an egotistical idiot, but I won't since he is right. While I can't speak for the Harrier, I'm willing to bet that NO ONE who is proficient in the Hornet uses the start-up checklist. You know the one that tells you how to start it up and turn all of your systems on. That's basically like starting your car and if you can't figure that out without a checklist then maybe you shouldn't be driving either. The take-off checklist is done every flight, whether you are single seat or two. This one makes sure that your trim is set, flaps are correct and that your wings are spread and locked. Be real. I'm not going to CHALLENGE AND RESPONSE myself the entire checklist.
Real mature. Call me a retard, then get butt hurt when I throw it back at you.
You know what? You want to try and make something personal that didn't start out that way, knock yourself out. I would expect a Major in the Marine Corps to behave a little better than that.
I don't know your fleet story, so don't pretend to know mine. I'm fine with my rep.
I'm done with this topic... and I still don't use a paper checklist regularly.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Last I checked, a car involves sticking the key in the hole and turning. Little more involved in a tactical aircraft start.
In my squadron (where the LOW TIME pilot has 1700+ flight hours), do we go through the checklist? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. However, even in the "no" times - we pull it out, and did a quick run-through to make sure we haven't missed anything. Squeeze made it sound like you memorize it, and press.
Exactly!
Damn dude, bad day? Squeeze is correct, majority of the dudes I know in my community memorize the checklists and use acronyms/mnemonics to remember the checklists.
I can't remember the last time I used a startup checklist...probably SFAM's back when I was a RAG student. Same with takeoff and landing checks...memorized.
S/F
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
And it was someone in your community that had to write an Approach article, after doing a high speed abort because he didn't unfold his wings. I'm guessing that's in a checklist, somewhere?
Ask HAL - he's probably started/taxied/taken off more times than all of us combined. Yet, I'm guessing he still uses a checklist.