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B-17G Liberty Belle (SN 44-85734) destroyed at air show

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Found this thought elsewhere online. As much as it sucks to see a Fort go down like that, consider this. Liberty Belle ended her days the same way that countless other B-17s did in the war over Nazi Germany. She took mortal damage, and still got her crew down safely.
 

OUSOONER

Crusty Shellback
pilot
That was the first thing I thought...how unfortunate, but that was as close to real as I'll ever get to seeing what a Fort looked like in a French or Dutch field circa 1943-44.
 

Sapper!

Excuse the BS...
I can’t speak to the ARFF guys. I wish they would have gone out there and put the fire out.

I can however speak to structural firefighting.

Both building construction and building contents (the fireload) have changed significantly over the last 30 years. Older stick built houses will stand up to fire longer than newer lightweight construction. Why use lightweight wood frame construction? Simple, it’s cheap. Nothing more, nothing less. Why do older houses stand up longer? The way they are put together. Older houses are constructed out of true 2x4 or larger dimension lumber and either nailed or screwed together. New construction uses smaller dimension lumber, lots of laminates, glues, and gang nails. A lot of the glues and laminates will begin to delaminate prior to having fire impinge them.

The simple version. Think of an old house as a big log on a fire. Think of a new house as a small log on a fire. Which burns quicker? The small one. And when the house falls down, we die. And to be honest. My first priority is going home in the morning to my family.

What about old houses you ask. Well, we fill those with much more stuff and we used to, and its different materials. Same as newer construction, lots of glues and laminates and plastics. They burn faster, hotter and with more dangerous smoke. These fires flash a whole lot faster. Usually before we even arrive.

Example:


If you have any questions. Feel free to ask. Finally something I can speak to on this board.

What is your take with the guy in California (i think) drowing while the FD was watching? I heard the interview with the Chief and I stand behind the guy, for a couple of reasons. Mostly though he was very professional and didn't try to pass any bucks. Just curious what the inner workings for FDs were to be water rescue certified and maybe what you think about them not attempting a rescue? Does the cert/qual rely on gear or physical/didactic training for the guys? Both? What is relevant to the situation, at least the most important aspect, of water borne rescue quals? Honest question, I thought about it for a while after the broadcast. Sorry if it is a lame question, disregard if so.
 

ryan1234

Well-Known Member
What is your take with the guy in California (i think) drowing while the FD was watching? I heard the interview with the Chief and I stand behind the guy, for a couple of reasons. Mostly though he was very professional and didn't try to pass any bucks. Just curious what the inner workings for FDs were to be water rescue certified and maybe what you think about them not attempting a rescue? Does the cert/qual rely on gear or physical/didactic training for the guys? Both? What is relevant to the situation, at least the most important aspect, of water borne rescue quals? Honest question, I thought about it for a while after the broadcast. Sorry if it is a lame question, disregard if so.

That story was slightly complicated. The guy who drowned was in the act of committing suicide. He was also in chest-high water. A girl in her late 20's pulled him out. I can see the question of rescuing him because he was committing suicide... but policy... yeah I don't buy that. I was an ocean lifeguard for several years, and that's just BS. Chest high water... calling the Coast Guard? My first year lifeguarding we had a guy who overdosed on some drugs and did the "deadman's float"... we obviously didn't know at the time that he overdosed (or that he had even taken any drugs) and was trying to commit suicide. Many people do the "deadman's float" for 20-30 seconds... he stayed in a little longer... we went to get him... and he could not be revived. I can see the 'suicide argument' for sure... but not the 'we couldn't do it 'cause of policy'.

But hey... I don't blame them... that water's cold in Alameda!
 

Sapper!

Excuse the BS...
That story was slightly complicated. The guy who drowned was in the act of committing suicide. He was also in chest-high water. A girl in her late 20's pulled him out. I can see the question of rescuing him because he was committing suicide... but policy... yeah I don't buy that. I was an ocean lifeguard for several years, and that's just BS. Chest high water... calling the Coast Guard? My first year lifeguarding we had a guy who overdosed on some drugs and did the "deadman's float"... we obviously didn't know at the time that he overdosed (or that he had even taken any drugs) and was trying to commit suicide. Many people do the "deadman's float" for 20-30 seconds... he stayed in a little longer... we went to get him... and he could not be revived. I can see the 'suicide argument' for sure... but not the 'we couldn't do it 'cause of policy'.

But hey... I don't blame them... that water's cold in Alameda!

That is pretty rough, I'm sorry you couldn't save the guy. Has be a bad feeling but just doing that kind of job means you have some guts and courage.

I totally understand the suicide part and really that is why I think that if they didn't want to risk saving the guy then I'm all for it. So I agree with you most definitely. But in all honesty the Chief clearly stated that no one was trained to do the rescue and that is why he would not allow them to attempt it. That is why I was curious, but I wasn't very clear on that. My apologies
 

ryan1234

Well-Known Member
I totally understand the suicide part and really that is why I think that if they didn't want to risk saving the guy then I'm all for it. So I agree with you most definitely. But in all honesty the Chief clearly stated that no one was trained to do the rescue and that is why he would not allow them to attempt it. That is why I was curious, but I wasn't very clear on that. My apologies

I hear you, I just don't buy that no one was trained to do the rescue. It doesn't take that much know-how to pull someone in from chest-deep water... especially if there are multiple people around to help. It was so shallow that the Coast Guard boat couldn't even get in. One girl in her 20s pulled him in, albeit too late... I don't know if she was an amazon or not, but still... I, personally, think that the FD Chief dropped the ball on that one. The outcome was mitigated by the suicide, but if that was say... a drowning mom of three kids, the policy would need to be amended on the fly. Also, I believe the Chief dropped the ball by not having the training in place before the incident. I mean, there is a significant amount of water in the area... only a matter of time before some drowns out of reach of the Coast Guard.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
I hear you, I just don't buy that no one was trained to do the rescue. It doesn't take that much know-how to pull someone in from chest-deep water... especially if there are multiple people around to help. It was so shallow that the Coast Guard boat couldn't even get in. One girl in her 20s pulled him in, albeit too late... I don't know if she was an amazon or not, but still... I, personally, think that the FD Chief dropped the ball on that one. The outcome was mitigated by the suicide, but if that was say... a drowning mom of three kids, the policy would need to be amended on the fly. Also, I believe the Chief dropped the ball by not having the training in place before the incident. I mean, there is a significant amount of water in the area... only a matter of time before some drowns out of reach of the Coast Guard.

A person drowning, or someone who thinks they are drowning, is capable of creating 2 fatalities if untrained people try to go after them.

I never swam with a foam tube as a beach lifeguard specifically because the torpedo tube (hard plastic) was way better at beating the panic/shit out of a near drowning victim and could be the difference in maintaining control of a bad situation.
 

LFDtoUSMC

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Warning: Prepare to read a novel.

Sapper,

Not a lame question there. I had not heard about that story yet and had to look it up. Without having intimate knowledge of the Alameda FD/PD Water Rescue SOP/SOG I can only speculate.

Departments nationwide are in a bind trying to figure out what services that can render and which they can't. Not every FD can be a full service agency, same reason each of the branches of the military can't do it all themselves. We have to balance out our high frequency, low risk calls with our low frequency, high risk calls and determine what we can realistically train for and safely mitigate on our own before we must call for support from somebody else. We simply cannot do it all, even though we wish we could.

With the amount of water around Alameda I find it hard to believe that the FD does not do land based water rescue. HOWEVER, with such hard financial times it is hard to fund training to maintain proficiency in basic skills (Fire & EMS) on shift in between running calls and performing other duties. Much less pay OT for guys and gals to take TRT (Technical Rescue Team) classes on their days off and maintain those skills on top of normal job functions. Then the departments must purchase expensive equipment that must be maintained, which = more $$.

What I am guessing/assuming that Alameda has done is pass the water rescue responsibility to the USCG. While it is a high risk situation, it is probably a low frequency event. Why should the FD spend precious $$ to fund the KSA (Knowledge, Skills and Abilities) needed to mitigate a low frequency event when the USCG has ALL the capability in the world and are a free phone call away? All this takes is one sentence in the SOP/SOG that states something to the effect of. “For all water rescue situations involving open water the AFD will call the USCG and they shall be the lead agency.”


My department is not near any open water, we do have a river and plenty of ponds though. We only train for swift water rescue simply because by the time we arrive at a water “rescue” in ponds or lakes it has become a recovery. We do have a dive team that partners with the PD for the recovery part. I myself am not certified for swift water rescue I do not know the ins and outs of the training syllabus (I too was a lifeguard for 5 years in HS and college, so I have an idea or two). I do know that out of our 170ish line personnel, which are spread over three shifts, only 25 maybe 35 have taken the class.

Ryan1234,

I have no doubt you understand the distinct difference between career fire departments job responsibilities and those of lifeguards. We have to train for a plethora of hazards and situations while the lifeguard trains towards two; getting people out of the water, then treating them. I know, I was a lifeguard too. If the policy states we don’t send FF’s into the water, then we don’t send FF’s into the water. Think of it as a boldface EP, you must do what the policy states, even if you don’t like it.

ScoolBubba hit the nail on the head; I am not dying because you wanted to. Jut put your self in the Chief shoes for a moment. Imagine having to walk up to a wife, husband, mother, father, child, etc... And explain to them that their loved one won’t be coming home because he drowned for no reason. In the great grand scheme of things, a suicidal person, already in the water, does not warrant the same kind of response that a drowning person does. If it were a person in distress and actually needed rescue you might have seen a different response.


* These are my thoughts, not those of my department or the Alameda PD/FD. If you have more questions or want to discuss the finer points just ask.
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
I never swam with a foam tube as a beach lifeguard specifically because the torpedo tube (hard plastic) was way better at beating the panic/shit out of a near drowning victim and could be the difference in maintaining control of a bad situation.

It also cut through the waves better and made it easier to swim out. Still, the only reason I preferred it was that it made me look more like a REAL lifeguard, like everyone's seen on TV.

 

ryan1234

Well-Known Member
Ryan1234,

I have no doubt you understand the distinct difference between career fire departments job responsibilities and those of lifeguards. We have to train for a plethora of hazards and situations while the lifeguard trains towards two; getting people out of the water, then treating them. I know, I was a lifeguard too. If the policy states we don’t send FF’s into the water, then we don’t send FF’s into the water. Think of it as a boldface EP, you must do what the policy states, even if you don’t like it.

ScoolBubba hit the nail on the head; I am not dying because you wanted to. Jut put your self in the Chief shoes for a moment. Imagine having to walk up to a wife, husband, mother, father, child, etc... And explain to them that their loved one won’t be coming home because he drowned for no reason. In the great grand scheme of things, a suicidal person, already in the water, does not warrant the same kind of response that a drowning person does. If it were a person in distress and actually needed rescue you might have seen a different response.


* These are my thoughts, not those of my department or the Alameda PD/FD. If you have more questions or want to discuss the finer points just ask.

I understand where you're coming from. Our fire department actually trained with us... somewhat... so they had a good idea about the ins and outs of what to do. Unfortunately, they just weren't good at it. Not many were competent swimmers. That wasn't what they were hired for though. They were hired to do rescue kitties from trees:p



It's absolutely ridiculous for the policy of a fire department (next to a large body of water) to incorporate the Coast Guard into it as the sole response in shallow water... especially when the USCG response time is significant. If people are going to drown in the surf/bay/river, it's generally going to be in less time than a USCG helo can get the call, scramble, and be there. Every fire department I knew of in FL... that was close to the beach... had people trained. Lifeguards aren't (and weren't) year-round... and people still go in the water. The circumstances of the suicide are one thing... but an incident not involving a suicide is definitely possible and should be trained for accordingly.

Schoolbubba - we also never used anything other than solid plastic cans. Especially in the rough surf!
 
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