AVO Warrant Officer (Aerial Vehicle Operator) MQ-25

[Hair Warrior]

Is the purpose of having an AVO Warrant (and not a URL) to allow them to get really, really good at flying a specific unmanned platform and not waste time or brainpower with unnecessary training (e.g. SERE, water egress, etc.) or unrelated collateral duties often assigned to O1-O4s?

 

[wlawr005]

Is the purpose of having an AVO Warrant (and not a URL) to allow them to get really, really good at flying a specific unmanned platform and not waste time or brainpower with unnecessary training (e.g. SERE, water egress, etc.) or unrelated collateral duties often assigned to O1-O4s?

I don't know what Navy you're in but the Navy I'm in will absolutely make those guys go to water survival training.

Definitely going to need a NATOPs qualified ODO as well.

And probably have crew rest limits too ??

 

[wlawr005]

I don't think it will always be that way. I think an archaic system has to move forward or it will fail. The fact is that the fighter mafia did their job once recently, and they kinda fucked it up in the process, and yet they get a fucking medal and a ticket to flag officer, is nothing more than saluting a guy who tilts at windmills.

Meanwhile- the ISR and persistent strike mafia does more for a combatant commander in a day than the fighter community did in a decade, and they're not as important?

I'm sorry, but the President doesn't watch your feed realtime, as we're striking the head of the snake. And how many VFA guys are running CAP for a Reaper? Was it a VFA guy who killed Soleimani? Or did they just escort the team to ensure they could do their job?

But sure. Those guys aren't nearly as important as the manned world.

Warfare is changing and the Navy has made a decision to not invest in a critical component of the future- unlike every other service.

But this is also the service that turned the UCAV into a goddamn tanker...

I'll bite. I'd be interested to know what it is you think he kinda fucked up?

Cuz I was about 25 miles away while the whole thing played out and I don't recollect him noticeably fucking anything up.

We watched tape together the next day, employment seemed to go as any employment in that kind of scenario would go.

You may be right, VFA may be all fucked up but at least we know when to appropriately use "striking the head of the snake".

 

[IKE]

I’ll stand by, and accept, the shit storm, but sure...why not? You mentioned the “tip-of-the-spear” stuff and I readily agree that the army views aviation much differently than the navy and AF. The army sees aviation in a supporting/tactical role where the others see aviation in a more strategic sense. So, why shouldn’t the navy recognize that the vast majority of “haulers” are in a supporting role and save a few dollars over the life of a career...especially with the transition to plopters and the way people are talking about the “future” of HSC? Wouldn’t it be wiser to take a serious look at how long people actually stay in the communities and get more flight hours out of a short career than fewer out of a longer career that might miss the golden path?

Every time I wonder why Naval Aviation can't do something more like the Army or Air Force, I remember that we deploy on ships. While the other services can just add another C-5 or passenger fight to their deployment plans at an incremental cost, we can only fit so many sailors on a ship. It's why our pilots are DIVOs and DHs and most enlisted folks take a stint in the galley.

 

[Hair Warrior]

I don't know what Navy you're in but the Navy I'm in will absolutely make those guys go to water survival training.

Definitely going to need a NATOPs qualified ODO as well.

And probably have crew rest limits too ??

The Navy I’m in thinks that 2 weeks of training is ? to be a naval officer, and if there’s ever a shipboard fire that needs fighting, or an occasion to use a firearm, they are just going to throw me st the flames/enemy and hope my carcass doesn’t make it worse.

 

[Griz882]

Every time I wonder why Naval Aviation can't do something more like the Army or Air Force, I remember that we deploy on ships. While the other services can just add another C-5 or passenger fight to their deployment plans at an incremental cost, we can only fit so many sailors on a ship. It's why our pilots are DIVOs and DHs and most enlisted folks take a stint in the galley.

Probably the best point in this discussion.

 

[RobLyman]

Leadership as a warrant in Army Aviation depends on the platform, the mission and the deployment. Oh yeah...and the individual MOS and assignment. We'll leave the whole ship driving part for another discussion somewhere else on the forums (it's been done).

Assault and attack units tend to deploy at the battalion level...and occasionally at the company level. Individual autonomy is limited and leadership is very top-down. Warrants don't lead in this situation, they perform and advise. Medevac deploys as a forward support medical platoon/team with a footprint very similar to an HSL/HSM/HSC small ship det. The OIC is an O-3, but the maintenance officer and standardization officers, who acts as operations, are warrants. They get some leadership experience, but tend to not write NCOERs or have 'command' responsibilities.

Then you have the odd things that happen on deployments...mostly combat. Units get fragmented and small 'dets' form in just about any shithole they are needed. Still, there is almost always an O there for command.

Staff jobs usually reserved for Os in the Navy are often filled with warrants up to and including the brigade level. As a CW3 at the brigade, my counterparts in the Navy I worked with were O-4s. However in my case I was much more successful than my CW4 predecessor and successor because of my previous experience as a Navy O-4.

Then, the national guard has additional special cases. Companies are sometimes broken out across several states. I am a det OIC as a CW4 with 96 people authorized. I have only 55 assigned right now due to the unit being new. On deployment my command status goes away and the company is commanded by an O-4. CONUS I administratively report to an O-5, the battalion commander of the local state GSAB.

TLDR; Army aviation warrants usually are not placed in leadership positions, but there are exceptions.

 

[RobLyman]

Every time I wonder why Naval Aviation can't do something more like the Army or Air Force, I remember that we deploy on ships. While the other services can just add another C-5 or passenger fight to their deployment plans at an incremental cost, we can only fit so many sailors on a ship. It's why our pilots are DIVOs and DHs and most enlisted folks take a stint in the galley.

Not really. There are almost always host nation manning limitations. One person must come back each time a new person is sent "in country".

 

[IKE]

Not really. There are almost always host nation manning limitations. One person must come back each time a new person is sent "in country".

Fair enough. I was definitely speaking from ignorance about the particulars of the other services. Let me ask this in the hopes of at least comparing Galas to Granny Smiths:

How many people (OIC down to junior most grunt) would the Army use to deploy 2× H-60s for 6 months ISO of another unit with no other aviation support around (other than fuel and parts/logistics)?

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Every time I wonder why Naval Aviation can't do something more like the Army or Air Force, I remember that we deploy on ships. While the other services can just add another C-5 or passenger fight to their deployment plans at an incremental cost, we can only fit so many sailors on a ship. It's why our pilots are DIVOs and DHs and most enlisted folks take a stint in the galley.

thAtS wHy The mArinEs Do moRe wiTh lEss!

 

[RobLyman]

Fair enough. I was definitely speaking from ignorance about the particulars of the other services. Let me ask this in the hopes of at least comparing Galas to Granny Smiths:

How many people (OIC down to junior most grunt) would the Army use to deploy 2× H-60s for 6 months ISO of another unit with no other aviation support around (other than fuel and parts/logistics)?

Closest I can come is a comparison to a medevac deployment for 9-12 months. The company deploys with 4-5 FSMTs to an area, where each FSMT is located approximately 50-100 nm away from each other. The HHC FSMT is slightly heavy, with a few extra back shop mechanics, a 1SG, etc...They will do the more complex mantenance..ie greater than a 40 hr PMS inspection on an H-60. The other FSMTs (DETs) look like this:

OIC: CPT
Platoon Ldr: 1/2LT
Ops/Stanz: CW2-CW4
Maint: CW2-CW4
TACOPS/AMSO: CW2-CW4
Medevac Pilots: +3 (Total of 6 or 7)
Medics: 3-4
Crew Chief/Mechanics: 3-4
Ops NCO: 1 or 2 E4-E5
Optional Supply NCO: E4-E5

There are always variations and the FSMTs are more often short vs having extra people. The FSMT FOB size can range from anything as big as Taji, all the way down to an old abandoned cement factory with minimal personnel for security. I have been deployed to FOBs on medevac with a footprint of less than 100 people TOTAL, including refuelers, infantry guarding the fences, etc... These are scary.

So, in some ways the Army is significantly more autonomous. In other ways they are less (ie a company head quarters 50-100 nm away). Sometimes medevac deploys with an entire GSAB and brigade. This is the equivalent of a CVN based deployment. There is no shortage of 'leadership' to interfere (cough cough) or help out in this case. There are some sharp young O-3s out there that prove their worth, and there are those that fail spectacularly. The great thing is that they sometimes have VERY experienced warrants to advise them. Those that fail are almost always the same ones who ignore advice from warrants and senior NCOs.

 

[Griz882]

Platoon Ldr: 1/2LT

I never liked half-lieutenants. It wasn't until they made whole-lieutenant that they had some knowledges. ?

Just kidding..excellent description @RobLyman

 

[IKE]

Closest I can come is a comparison to a medevac deployment for 9-12 months. The company deploys with 4-5 FSMTs to an area, where each FSMT is located approximately 50-100 nm away from each other. The HHC FSMT is slightly heavy, with a few extra back shop mechanics, a 1SG, etc...They will do the more complex mantenance..ie greater than a 40 hr PMS inspection on an H-60. The other FSMTs (DETs) look like this:

OIC: CPT
Platoon Ldr: 1/2LT
Ops/Stanz: CW2-CW4
Maint: CW2-CW4
TACOPS/AMSO: CW2-CW4
Medevac Pilots: +3 (Total of 6 or 7)
Medics: 3-4
Crew Chief/Mechanics: 3-4
Ops NCO: 1 or 2 E4-E5
Optional Supply NCO: E4-E5

There are always variations and the FSMTs are more often short vs having extra people. The FSMT FOB size can range from anything as big as Taji, all the way down to an old abandoned cement factory with minimal personnel for security. I have been deployed to FOBs on medevac with a footprint of less than 100 people TOTAL, including refuelers, infantry guarding the fences, etc... These are scary.

So, in some ways the Army is significantly more autonomous. In other ways they are less (ie a company head quarters 50-100 nm away). Sometimes medevac deploys with an entire GSAB and brigade. This is the equivalent of a CVN based deployment. There is no shortage of 'leadership' to interfere (cough cough) or help out in this case. There are some sharp young O-3s out there that prove their worth, and there are those that fail spectacularly. The great thing is that they sometimes have VERY experienced warrants to advise them. Those that fail are almost always the same ones who ignore advice from warrants and senior NCOs.

Thanks, that's paints a nice picture. I don't think it helps compare sizes (a common AW pastime), because Navy detachments are capable of phase maintenance (200-h, used to be 175-h on legacy birds). I think my DDG Det was typical with 6 pilots, 3 aircrew, and 20 maintainers led by 1 CPO to operate 2 60Rs for 7 months. I was going to guess the Navy footprint was smaller, but didn't think about differences in level of maintenance.

That's probably enough of a threadjack.

 

[squorch2]

legacy birds

?

 

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