AUKUS

[Uncle Fester]

Leaders unveil a circuitous path to nuke-powered Australian subs​

Some details about the AUKUS program starting to be put out on the street.

Two interesting things: one, holy crap is this a massive program. Us and the Brits are basically building a nuke shipbuilding industry for Oz from scratch.

Two, this nugget (and excusing for the moment that Defense News is apparently very bad with Australian geography):

In a first phase, U.S. officials will help Australia build the capacity to maintain and employ nuclear-powered submarines, namely American Virginia-class and British Astute-class boats that will begin operating out of Perth, in southeastern Australia, in 2027.

Wonder if this means rotational deployments or the long-dreamed-of FDNF Australia?

 

[number9]

Interesting that they pivoted from Columbia-class to Virginia-class boats.. I wonder how much of that was U.S. shipyard capacity and how much of it was due to other factors?

The current class of Australian boats, the Collins-class, was not exactly an unmitigated success when it was released.

I appreciate your commitment to geographical accuracy

 

[SynixMan]

Interesting that they pivoted from Columbia-class to Virginia-class boats.. I wonder how much of that was U.S. shipyard capacity and how much of it was due to other factors?

The current class of Australian boats, the Collins-class, was not exactly an unmitigated success when it was released.

I appreciate your commitment to geographical accuracy

Do you mean support Boomers or build them Boomers? I don't know they're deployment patterns per se but just logistically I don't know if a FDNF site in Oz really helps them. Fast Attack though, I think it would.

BT BT

Seems win/win/win, good for AUKUS.

 

[Flash]

Wonder if this means rotational deployments or the long-dreamed-of FDNF Australia?

Not just deployments but PCS's too, an article I read last week talked about how they are apparently considering mixed-nationality crews for the Aussie ships to start while they build their force. They have almost no real nuclear training available in country, they have no nuke power plants except for a small research reactor, so will have to build that capacity from scratch. They also have had issues recruiting and retaining submariners already, so this is going to make that issue even more acute.

The sequence of selling them Virginia-class subs then having them and the UK jointly design and build a new class of SSN with tech from all three makes pretty good sense. It won't be cheap but could save all three money if they do it right. That is a big 'if' though we do have some history with both the Brits and their Tridents and the Aussies with their combat system on the Collins-class.

All in all a pretty good win-win for all three, nice to see a relatively 'new' geopolitical/defense alliance/agreement actually get past the bright idea stage.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Not just deployments but PCS's too, an article I read last week talked about how they are apparently considering mixed-nationality crews for the Aussie ships to start while they build their force. They have almost no real nuclear training available in country, they have no nuke power plants except for a small research reactor, so will have to build that capacity from scratch. They also have had issues recruiting and retaining submariners already, so this is going to make that issue even more acute.

The sequence of selling them Virginia-class subs then having them and the UK jointly design and build a new class of SSN with tech from all three makes pretty good sense. It won't be cheap but could save all three money if they do it right. That is a big 'if' though we do have some history with both the Brits and their Tridents and the Aussies with their combat system on the Collins-class.

All in all a pretty good win-win for all three, nice to see a relatively 'new' geopolitical/defense alliance/agreement actually get past the bright idea stage.

I believe I read that composite-crews idea somewhere too; US CO, Aus XO, that sort of thing. Though if the RAN sub force culture is anything like the Brits - and I assume it is - that's going to result in some growing pains. They're pros, but the Brit submariners at least tend to be more old-school piratical WWII-style than the made-in-Rickovers-image US style.

The rough idea for their eventual homegrown subs seems to be an Astute-based hull with mostly US 'guts' including the reactor. And you make a good point about the lack of an Aussie nuclear industry; every other country that operates nuke boats also has a civil nuclear infrastructure and the two can support/augment each other.

 

[robav8r]

Kinda sounds like the F-35 model . . . .

 

[nittany03]

I believe I read that composite-crews idea somewhere too; US CO, Aus XO, that sort of thing. Though if the RAN sub force culture is anything like the Brits - and I assume it is - that's going to result in some growing pains. They're pros, but the Brit submariners at least tend to be more old-school piratical WWII-style than the made-in-Rickovers-image US style.

Well, if people keep their egos in check , perhaps they might learn something. I mean, I get that being put in command of a nuclear propulsion plant is an enormous responsibility to put it lightly. But if you want to win a war, ultimately, you also have to stand up and punch the other guy in the face.

 

[wink]

They're pros, but the Brit submariners at least tend to be more old-school piratical WWII-style than the made-in-Rickovers-image US style.

But if you want to win a war, ultimately, you also have to stand up and punch the other guy in the face.

I think the (unclass) record since the end of the the Cold War shows US Bubbleheads have done their fair share of punching the other guy. Have to wonder what more they have done we don't know about.

 

[Gatordev]

Well, if people keep their egos in check , perhaps they might learn something. I mean, I get that being put in command of a nuclear propulsion plant is an enormous responsibility to put it lightly. But if you want to win a war, ultimately, you also have to stand up and punch the other guy in the face.

I'm not really sure what Fester is saying specifically (though I'm not that he's wrong), but keep in mind that diesel boats have capabilities that nuke boats don't have, so there's going to have to be some change in TTPs, regardless of egos.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Well, if people keep their egos in check , perhaps they might learn something. I mean, I get that being put in command of a nuclear propulsion plant is an enormous responsibility to put it lightly. But if you want to win a war, ultimately, you also have to stand up and punch the other guy in the face.

I'm not really sure what Fester is saying specifically (though I'm not that he's wrong), but keep in mind that diesel boats have capabilities that nuke boats don't have, so there's going to have to be some change in TTPs, regardless of egos.

Less about egos and more about very different community cultures. For example, there are a few documentaries out there about the Perisher (command course) which is notoriously brutal and typically has a ~25% failure rate. Flunk out of that and you're done as a submariner, which I can't imagine the USN doing. I did see one doc where a US bubblehead was a student in the course (I believe he was on his way to a PEP tour on an RN boat) and his head was spinning, though he did make it through the course. They also keep their tactical and engineering officers on separate career tracks; they do not, so far as I know, get Nuke training unless they're going to be an Engineering Officer. So their command-track guys are expected to focus more on tactics and employment versus the US Alpha Nerd philosophy.

Not saying one is superior to the other, just that they're different.

 

[SynixMan]

A US CO and Aussie XO on an Aussie boat could cause some serious heartache if the ball went up. Same same for putting a RAN XO on a US boat. If it gets national tasking if the Aussie just confined to their stateroom??

 

[CallumJohn]

Leaders unveil a circuitous path to nuke-powered Australian subs​

Some details about the AUKUS program starting to be put out on the street.

Two interesting things: one, holy crap is this a massive program. Us and the Brits are basically building a nuke shipbuilding industry for Oz from scratch.

Two, this nugget (and excusing for the moment that Defense News is apparently very bad with Australian geography):



Wonder if this means rotational deployments or the long-dreamed-of FDNF Australia?

As an aussie myself, I'm all for even more US intervention in our defense industry. Gov's VERY heavily bolstering aviation industry for some reason, theyre offering aero engineering as a subject in public schools, and they're also offering free drone certs, so we can probably expect some sort of joint aviation project too - makes sense since most of our landmass is just one big death valley. Very excited for the Anglo-sphere to finally start working together. The US is terrible at politics but at least they aren't all on corporations payroll, unlike here, so I'm a proponent for even more intertwining of our defense industry and culture

 

[Uncle Fester]

First Australian Sailors Graduate from Nuclear Power School, Set to Serve on U.S. Navy Subs in Hawaii​

Looks like AUKUS is already off to the races, first Aussies have graduated from power school. I knew they wanted to get this program on the fast track, but I didn't know it'd get going *this* fast.

 

[taxi1]

First Australian Sailors Graduate from Nuclear Power School, Set to Serve on U.S. Navy Subs in Hawaii​

Looks like AUKUS is already off to the races, first Aussies have graduated from power school. I knew they wanted to get this program on the fast track, but I didn't know it'd get going *this* fast.

Add to the Sup O's list

 

[number9]

First Australian Sailors Graduate from Nuclear Power School, Set to Serve on U.S. Navy Subs in Hawaii​

Looks like AUKUS is already off to the races, first Aussies have graduated from power school. I knew they wanted to get this program on the fast track, but I didn't know it'd get going *this* fast.

There is some Australian media coverage of it here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07...raining-australian-navy-submariners/102572156

(Note that the ABC in Australia is the national broadcaster funded by the government, kind of like PBS is here)