Army "Right Sizing"

[villanelle]

Doesn't case 1 also have the GI Bill, which will not only pay for that college degree, but also give him BAH while he does it? Or which he can pass on to his kids if he deems that a better bet?

As for the kiddos, that's a personal decision and should have nothing to do with what compensation is fair. Having kids means he needs more money, but it doesn't somehow make the work he does worth more compensation. I'm pretty sure there's a system where people are compensated "to each according to need", and ours ain't it.

 

[Pags]

I would say you as an officer are a different catagory, I can't tell you how many people I STILL meet that are surprised that there are enlisted members with college degrees, I have had people just assume I was an officer because of my degrees and then are surprised when I tell them I was a Chief, the assumptions that civilian employers have with enlisted is what is hurting us.

FYI, when I started looking for a job and went to job fairs I was directed to the 30K to 40K a year jobs that they were directing all enlisted to, many of the companies that are looking to hire veterans fit them into 2 groups, the officers looking for jobs, and then the enlisted looking for jobs.

I was turned down from a job because they were looking for an officer, specifically an officer getting out as an O-3, no specific degree required. I know the person they hired, I had more experience and higher education, I would have started at the lower end of what they were looking to pay as well. (yes I was a bit bitter about the entire thing)

This isn't exactly black and white for Os either (not to say that what you're saying doesn't happen, as I'm sure it does, and it's shameful), but during my recent job hunting experience lots of companies say they want to hire military (it's hot right now), but they seem to want them mostly for what we'd call "small to mid unit leadership" skills. I interview with an Oil and Gas company and have seen job openings from other companies specifically targeted to transitioning military, and I'd say that when these companies think military, they think Staff NCO or a Junior Infantry Officer; the kind of guys who have spent the past four years motivating/training/etc grunts. They want these prior military to basically do the same thing for them; whether it's running an Amazon fulfillment center, or supervising a bunch of roughnecks, they want "deckplate" leadership.

As an officer with a master's level engineering education and three years of acquisition experience (plus all the normal program management crap), I found a lot of these offers, quite frankly, insulting. I had to work to convince employers that I wasn't just some guy who's spent a few years as a stick monkey and yelling at ABs, but someone with actual analytical and program management experience.

 

[whitesoxnation]

As an officer with a master's level engineering education and three years of acquisition experience (plus all the normal program management crap), I found a lot of these offers, quite frankly, insulting. I had to work to convince employers that I wasn't just some guy who's spent a few years as a stick monkey and yelling at ABs, but someone with actual analytical and program management experience.

How competitive are acquisition B-billet/shore tours to get? Is one education background more competitive than another? Does what you do translate well to the civilian side?

 

[Pags]

How competitive are acquisition B-billet/shore tours to get? Is one education background more competitive than another? Does what you do translate well to the civilian side?

I think my engineering background helped, but I have no clue how many, if any, folks I was in competition with. I was in an Operational Test squadron, which counted as an acquisition billet. It was cool work that I really enjoyed, but I'm a big dork, so take that with a grain of salt. On the Navy side, each community seemed to view OT differently. Since a lot of the VP guys I worked with got exposed to the P-8, they had no problem making O-4 and DH. RW guys seemed to be a bit rougher, lots of us got kicked to the curb due to FOS, but I can't truthfully say if that was because we all had weak(er) records or whether it was because the helo community didn't know what we did. Not sure how navy/USMC jet communities view a tour at VX-9. If you're bent on acquisitions, I'd recommend The TPS first and foremost. The TPS patch carries a fair amount if street cred, both in and out of the military.

I tend to think my work in the VX squadron strengthend my resume a lot more than an FRS or HT/VT billet would have, but that's the kind of work I wanted to do, so it all kind of fit in to my Plan A (AEDO) and Plan B (civilian engineering manager).

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Believe me, I understand exactly what you are saying and I agree it is a shame. But the best jobs in this new economy are not found in job fairs and they are not found on Monster.com. They are found networking and that skill can be taught to any servicemember of any rank. My civilian mentor is an executive at a Fortune 500 (#125 ) company who was an Army E-5 before getting his Master's degree. He decided what industry he wanted to break into and immersed himself in it so he learned the language of that industry while making an academic name for himself. He made himself irresistible to multiple companies and watched them fight over their job offers to him. It can be done. There are lots of nonprofits who pair up Servicemembers (AD and Vets) with mentors to help make things like this happen at zero cost to the Vet. I'm not saying it is easy, but neither was our Service. I'm suggesting you can have your dream job at your dream compensation level if you want it. PM me if you'd like to hear more about the Mentorship service I went with.

Networking is how I was contacted about a new job, but I am happy where I am at, for now...... I know what I want to do next and am on the path to get the needed certifications done.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

As an officer with a master's level engineering education and three years of acquisition experience (plus all the normal program management crap), I found a lot of these offers, quite frankly, insulting. I had to work to convince employers that I wasn't just some guy who's spent a few years as a stick monkey and yelling at ABs, but someone with actual analytical and program management experience.

I talked to a few companies that were looking for JO's to hire that wanted to pay 60K per year, I thought that was low for a JO after 4-8 years of service.

 

[Renegade One]

Networking is how I was contacted about a new job, but I am happy where I am at, for now...... I know what I want to do next and am on the path to get the needed certifications done.

^^^ This is also what worked best for me.

I talked to a few companies that were looking for JO's to hire that wanted to pay 60K per year, I thought that was low for a JO after 4-8 years of service.

Depends on the JO and the job match, of course, but that salary doesn't insult my sensitivities for a late 20-something just entering his/her life after military service.

 

[wink]

... He took a job (several times if you count re-enlistments) with mutually agreed upon compensation assurance. If changing the rules now is what makes financial sense - start with the recruiting office now, not the guys who have been re-upping and re-upping under a different set of rules.

So, I am wondering, would you be satisfied if on re-enlistment (literally a new contract) a sailor came under a new retirement system? After all, his previous mutually agreed upon compensation assurance was for the duration of an expired contract. While officers serve indefinitely, how about at augmentation (if they still do that), or when incurring another obligation due to grad school, TPS, etc. "We will send you to TPS but your payback will include cola - 1% on your retirement until age 60. Deal?" I am aware of the varying retention issues this may cause. Would something like this satisfies you morally? Looking for clarification.

 

[BackOrdered]

How competitive are acquisition B-billet/shore tours to get? Is one education background more competitive than another? Does what you do translate well to the civilian side?

In Supply, we have annual selection boards for selection to some acquisition billets. Others/most, gaining CO's screening or sustained superior timing.

 

[RadicalDude]

^^^ This is also what worked best for me.

Depends on the JO and the job match, of course, but that salary doesn't insult my sensitivities for a late 20-something just entering his/her life after military service.

60K? What kind of benefits? I know guys who were making six figures after "walking" from API during the great culling of 2009-1010. Zero job experience. As a LT with 5 years in, 60K would be a pay cut for me. Add in health insurance and 401k considerations, and that's gonna reduce the standard of living to which I'm accustomed.

 

[wink]

As a LT with 5 years in, 60K would be a pay cut for me. Add in health insurance and 401k considerations, and that's gonna reduce the standard of living to which I'm accustomed.

Try being 8+ and taking an airline pilot's job at less than $30K. Yet they are lining up.

 

[Renegade One]

60K? What kind of benefits? I know guys who were making six figures after "walking" from API during the great culling of 2009-1010. Zero job experience. As a LT with 5 years in, 60K would be a pay cut for me. Add in health insurance and 401k considerations, and that's gonna reduce the standard of living to which I'm accustomed.

Again…hard to discuss without knowing the individual cases and skill sets. I, too, took a pay cut after 31 years…but I had additional off-setting compensation and benefits, obviously. It all depends on the individual…what s/he brings to the table, and so on. I don't think there's a "formula" for what a 4-8 year AW could/should expect.

 

[Pags]

60K? What kind of benefits? I know guys who were making six figures after "walking" from API during the great culling of 2009-1010. Zero job experience. As a LT with 5 years in, 60K would be a pay cut for me. Add in health insurance and 401k considerations, and that's gonna reduce the standard of living to which I'm accustomed.

60k might be ok for a brand new LT, think SWO leaving after their initial commitment rolling in to what is essentially an entry level job. But, Like R1 said, it can be hard to tell if that's a good deal or not. A lot of industries, like the airlines, expect you to pay your dues. Even if you were an experienced senior LT, you can expect to be the FNG in some industries and have to essentially start over. A lot of it will depend on how you can leverage your skills into a new industry. Some of those transitions can be harder on older officers with families who aren't in a position to take a payout for a few years.

The trick is to have an idea of what you might want to do in the event of Plan B (life plan, not skateboard company) and have a plan in place. Do you want to be a lawyer or go back to school? Then you better save some scratch to support you and your family through several years of law school. Do you want to work in defense acquisitions or the r&d world? Take a test job over the HTs. Helo driver who wants to be an airline pilot? Go VTs, get some FW hours and maybe look at FTS and VR.

 

[robav8r]

While I did inject myself, I have actually endured it, appreciate those who do, did, and are. I am curious, would you say that the current compensation package is not generous enough, and if so, did you re-up at any point, and if so, was it based purely on patriotism, and if so, what is the beef with this conversation? Not at all throwing stones - curious about the indignation, "dont care what you have to say" etc.

I have nothing but sincere admiration and respect for you! I do however think it is counterproductive to avoid these conversations because of their emotive nature.

I was referring to those who approach this subject with very little time invested n the military (deployment & time away from home, etc) who seem to very quickly resign themselves to the notion that "personnel cost are unsustainable" and "we have to do something about the defense budget." If we don't fight for the benefits we have, we will lose them IMHO. I love the Navy and the opportunity it has given me - I consider myself very lucky. And yes, I am "happy" with my benefits package.

 

[Flash]

Well it looks like the COLA reduction to military retirement pay might not survive long. Not much of a surprise since the implementation is not until 2015 and one Congressman explicitly said that was plenty of time to kill it when the compromise was first reached. While there is a stronger chance than usual that it won't be repealed in the current fiscal enviroment I don't see it surviving long, much like the 40% retirement at 20 years that was repealed when I first got in I think it will be a bad memory soon. Cutting for existing retirees isn't the brightest thing to do, even if it is only a reduction in the COLA.

All that said I think this is just the beginning of what will likely be big changes to military retirement as we know it. The amount the federal government contributes to US military pensions (both for current and future obligations) has tripled since 2000 and is now much much higher than what we pay active duty troops now ($82 billion vs $60 billion as of 2010). And while some have pointed out that personnel and costs have stayed steady the past ten years or so as a percentage of the miltiary budget that doesn't take into account the massive increase in military spending (is OCO funding included?) we have had since 9/11 and the fact that pensions and medical care are obligated funds that will continue to increase even if cut. As I have mentioned on this board before I think the 20 year retirement is grossly outdated, paying the vast majority of retirees about 60 years for 20 years of serving (most retirees retire at or very near 20). And what is so magic about 20 years? I have seen plenty of folks reach their terminal rank and mark time until they hit 20 for no other reason than to get retirement.

Some sort of reform of our current military pension system is likely to happen in the next few years and while I think the COLA reduction to current miltiary pensions was a poor start I think we should take a long, hard and smart look at what should be done to change it instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to opposing any changes whatsoever that seems to be the SOP for MOAA and other like organizations as well as some of my friends and colleagues who seem think that anyone who suggests such things is a traitor and should be burned at the stake.