NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

[Treetop Flyer]

Fine. All I found were a bunch of guys who complained about everybody else in the world, but made excuses about how The Man was fucking them when it came to their own personal failures. The longest thread on there was "Things that motherfucking piss me off." Another big one was "The coming race war." Someone else posted a meme of Obama made to look like a monkey. No one needs that much negativity in his life. For God's sake, some of them had conniptions about allowing a woman on the board.

When they all got together to laugh at a 20 YO Marine recruit who committed suicide, I had enough and left. YMMV.

I come to message boards to relax, learn from others, and maybe pass on something worthwhile myself now and then. If that's not happening, it's not adding any value to my life and I'm not going to go to that site any longer.

You come here to relax? Most of the time you seem like the angriest, most high-strung person on here.

 

[zippy]

To slightly change the subject, I don't see why the services don't recognize that the current airline hiring boom is a serious factor but a limited window. There are any number of reasons why guys may think the grass is greener on the non-AD side of the fence, but none of that matters nearly as much (from a cynical, utilitarian view) if it's not possible to get to the other side of the fence. Right now, most of us have a realistic chance to go to a major at MSR, or worst-case after a year or two in the regionals. That will not be the case forever. For one thing, in about 10 years, the majority of the majors will have turned over almost their entire pilot force and will have the youngest group at the controls in a generation. This will automatically make it much more difficult to get hired, especially for folks at MSR who often just barely meet the hour minimums. Additionally, with the severely-hobbled flight hour programs we're currently experiencing, many of those approaching MSR in the nearer term will also have a more difficult time getting in the door as they leave their fleet JO tours with pretty lean logbooks. (Of course, that doesn't make people want to stay in so much as it limits their opportunities elsewhere, but it still should help retention).

My point is that leadership should recognize that to keep retention healthy in the near-term will, in my opinion, require very substantial bonuses (much more even than the new AF bonus) in order to at least make the military competitive with the airlines within that time window (while hoping that most people won't realize/care about the loss in potential airline seniority and the attached pay and QOL). But that bonus won't need to stick around forever. In a few years they'll be able to go back to much smaller numbers simply because the outside opportunities will be comparatively few and far between.

None of that is to say there aren't bigger and more complicated issues at play here, but overhauling a culture is not something you can do fast enough to keep the current force healthily manned. And call me a cynic, but I feel confident that if you put enough money on the table, retention will increase, regardless of how principled we all want to think we are.

I don't think the pilot shortage and airline hiring will be over in 10 years... as much as the military would like that to be so. The airlines are projecting 30k retirements in the next 20 years. It may not come in the massive amounts we're going to be seeing in the next 10 years, but it won't be the minimal hiring we saw in the mid 2000s to 2013 time frame.

While the military folks getting out will still be relatively young in 10 years there are plenty of pure civilian folks in their 50s now that will be approaching retirement.

I also don't think military pilots with thin logbooks will be kept from joining the industry- it would probably require them to go to a regional (or whatever the entry level part 121 airlines evolve into) but it will definitely be possible, especially with the R-ATP and the military transition programs that are coming into existence.

True story- I was able to get one of my former students who attrited in the Hornet FRS referred to an American Airlines Wholly Owned regional MTP program. Between airline and GI bill funding, he's able to get the ~400hrs he needs to reach the 750 R-ATP mins mostly paid for (it'll cost him $10k for the 400hrs) and his ATP-CTP course paid for and a signing bonus by the airline.

Another, a P-3 pilot who left the community with 800hrs (before qualifying for PPC) got picked up directly by a regional with his ATP-CTP course paid for and was given a signing bonus.

Programs like this won't be going away any time soon and realistically even folks with minimum logbook time isn't the show stopper it was even a year ago. Realistically a military pilot with one flying tour will be able to join the industry with minimal effort as long as they're willing to go to regional for a while before moving on to the majors.

 

[FrankTheTank]

To slightly change the subject, I don't see why the services don't recognize that the current airline hiring boom is a serious factor but a limited window. There are any number of reasons why guys may think the grass is greener on the non-AD side of the fence, but none of that matters nearly as much (from a cynical, utilitarian view) if it's not possible to get to the other side of the fence. Right now, most of us have a realistic chance to go to a major at MSR, or worst-case after a year or two in the regionals. That will not be the case forever. For one thing, in about 10 years, the majority of the majors will have turned over almost their entire pilot force and will have the youngest group at the controls in a generation. This will automatically make it much more difficult to get hired, especially for folks at MSR who often just barely meet the hour minimums. Additionally, with the severely-hobbled flight hour programs we're currently experiencing, many of those approaching MSR in the nearer term will also have a more difficult time getting in the door as they leave their fleet JO tours with pretty lean logbooks. (Of course, that doesn't make people want to stay in so much as it limits their opportunities elsewhere, but it still should help retention).

My point is that leadership should recognize that to keep retention healthy in the near-term will, in my opinion, require very substantial bonuses (much more even than the new AF bonus) in order to at least make the military competitive with the airlines within that time window (while hoping that most people won't realize/care about the loss in potential airline seniority and the attached pay and QOL). But that bonus won't need to stick around forever. In a few years they'll be able to go back to much smaller numbers simply because the outside opportunities will be comparatively few and far between.

None of that is to say there aren't bigger and more complicated issues at play here, but overhauling a culture is not something you can do fast enough to keep the current force healthily manned. And call me a cynic, but I feel confident that if you put enough money on the table, retention will increase, regardless of how principled we all want to think we are.

If half the crew force is retiring I the next ten years, where do you think the half that replaces them comes from? New hires.. And I wouldn't necessarily call the new crew force younger.. Those retiring now that were prior military had a much shorter commitment than now.. I fly with mostly new hires and the youngest I have seen was about 34 and the oldest 59... You're making a lot of assumptions...

 

[HackerF15E]

I ask this not as a challenge or retort, but as somebody on the outside trying to find their way in: In light of all the negatives of being a naval aviator mentioned here, what can you guys say in its favor?

Getting commissioned and earning the privilege to fly military aircraft for a career was hands down the best decision I've ever made in my life. There are things that I, in retrospect, wish I'd done slightly differently here and there, but overall it was a spectacular adventure and an entirely worthwhile experience. It was also incredibly formative in terms of my character as an American, a husband, a father, etc.

Do it and don't have a bit of worry that you'll regret the decision.

I say that as the same dude who, a couple pages back, was also singing the high praises of retiring and heading to the airlines in the last couple years.

 

[HackerF15E]

To slightly change the subject, I don't see why the services don't recognize that the current airline hiring boom is a serious factor but a limited window.

I think based on the way the USAF seems to be handling things, that they entirely believe this will blow over if they just hunker down for the short-term storm.

 

[robav8r]

I think based on the way the USAF seems to be handling things, that they entirely believe this will blow over if they just hunker down for the short-term storm.

. . . . . as they continue to pour money & resources into all things cyber, space and unmanned.

 

[Gatordev]

Take the IWAGR negative waves here, please.

 

[Jim123]

Take the IWAGR negative waves here, please.

 

[sevenhelmet]

You raise some good points, but I really don't think it's about the money...it REALLY is culture, and the BS...to a point.
35k for 14 years is not enough money to put up with the BS. BUT if they REALLY want to make it an easy decision pay 500k for 5 years or 800k for ten years or something like that.

That's ridiculous. Are you really suggesting that they double O-4 pay to compete on a dollar-for-dollar basis with the airlines? If the airline hiring spree is indeed a transient phenomenon (which seems to be the case), the second-order effect could be that at some point you have to lower that insanely high bonus and cause a second manning crisis. Or if the airlines hiring boom lasts "forever", you don't lower the bonus, and >MSR pilots make 2x as much as everyone else. Sounds great for morale in other communities who might be having their own manning issues. Finally, you're still right where you started with respect to the climate, "admin first, mission second", shell games with jets, and low flight hours. If you are lifestyle/money driven and looking at $200K+/yr. for life, or $200K for 5 yrs with more BS, which would you choose?

As you pointed out, the solution lies in improving the culture. Period dot. It's more challenging from a leadership perspective, but you don't have to convince Congress to give you more money in this bloody awful fiscal climate, and you don't end up competing directly with private industry. The guys that are in it for the money leave at MSR, and the guys who are in it for the love of the game stay around. That's not a new problem, and not one that's going to be solved, especially in and around 2017.

 

[Deleted member 24525]

That's ridiculous. Are you really suggesting that they double O-4 pay to compete on a dollar-for-dollar basis with the airlines? If the airline hiring spree is indeed a transient phenomenon (which seems to be the case), the second-order effect could be that at some point you have to lower that insanely high bonus and cause a second manning crisis. Or if the airlines hiring boom lasts "forever", you don't lower the bonus, and >MSR pilots make 2x as much as everyone else. Sounds great for morale in other communities who might be having their own manning issues. Finally, you're still right where you started with respect to the climate, "admin first, mission second", shell games with jets, and low flight hours. If you are lifestyle/money driven and looking at $200K+/yr. for life, or $200K for 5 yrs with more BS, which would you choose?

As you pointed out, the solution lies in improving the culture. Period dot. It's more challenging from a leadership perspective, but you don't have to convince Congress to give you more money in this bloody awful fiscal climate, and you don't end up competing directly with private industry. The guys that are in it for the money leave at MSR, and the guys who are in it for the love of the game stay around. That's not a new problem, and not one that's going to be solved, especially in and around 2017.

I'm just telling you what my price would've been to stay.

 

[sevenhelmet]

I'm just telling you what my price would've been to stay.

Well then I'd say your decision was already made, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Take the IWAGR negative waves here, please.

You forgot a couple - post #413 who's 2nd paragraph started it all and post #418.

 

[Gatordev]

At least 50% of each post was still relevant to this thread, so I kept it here. Regardless, it's got it's own thread, nothing was deleted, so everyone should be happy.

 

[DanMa1156]

On the Navy side of the house, how do we go about improving the culture?

I remember joking with several of my fellow JO's that our superiors would scold us for not having enough fun (at least, together), to which our responses were often:

a) When, if we are flying on weekends?
b) Why, if a JOPA walkout ends up with you backing CMC in saying it's disrespectful to the Enlisted (even if tacitly coordinated with OPS-O)?
c) Where, if you are worried about us getting drunk in public and the I-Bar / O'Club (on other bases) has MA's parked immediately outside it?

Despite the somewhat common complaints from above, I thought we did some awesome stuff: Kidnapped a Skipper to Vegas via a drunk party bus with the JO's and XO for the weekend; had "family dinners" in every port including some great Admins, 2 great admins in Tahoe (which, in fairness, were curtailed for many when the schedule came out Friday night and you saw you were flying Saturday or suddenly had a Level III brief on Monday - again, don't scold the JO's for prioritizing the front office's priorities); 2 truly great green-lights and 2 lesser ones; and plenty of just random JO get togethers in downtown San Diego that plenty of DH's and occasional Skippers and XOs were wont to drop in on.

The things I had an issue with on my JO tour were scheduling issues that felt like I got home from deployment and we were immediately back in work-ups; 2 sets of Skippers and XO's telling the JO's that "things will get easier" / QOL will improve "just after we complete HARP/Airwing Fallon/Fake TSTA/Real TSTA/C2x/CQ Det 1/2/3/4" but instead at the end of one would shift into "we need to prep for the next big event that's only 6 weeks away! You need to buckle down!"; petty and inconsistent behind-the-back picking of "winners" and "losers" for flight hours and quals, which was partially caused by the fact that I think it's a little ridiculous to ask HSC JO's to get Level III qual'd in 3 years in 3 different missions (and partially why, IMHO as a community, we don't really have a lot of buy-in from the rest of the Navy as to the value of our quals); and then, to top it off, getting completely hosed by a seismic timing shift that affected both my ability to earn anymore quals and my high-water FITREP reporting period that I've been told has probably ended my career.

I loved it, and I hated it, and I'm damn sure glad I did it.

I suspect the things I'd change are:
1. Expectations of qualifications (I assume this is HSC specific; I don't see other communities complaining about this), or lengthening the tour so you can reasonably become good at them.

2. Better work-life balance (I totally got and bought into the weird scheduling and hours associated with flying days then nights, etc.; I was less of a fan of the "we always are in ramp-up mode mentality. I know for sure I'm not the only one in my squadron who felt this way - I am quite certain my DH's resented it as well). I would add to this, especially in the first couple of months after deployment, and with no workup on the horizon in sight, the discouragement of taking leave was pretty annoying. Because of my fleet tour, I carried well over 60 days into my shore tour, and even with somewhat regular leave periods here, have a balance of 61 days as of my last LES (that's not a complaint, that's just pointing out the difficulty in taking leave during my fleet tour).

3. Stop the Chief / CMC worship. I loved most of my Chiefs, and I'm confident I was well-respected in their Mess, but I hated when a CMC would not remove himself from a JO or DH ranking board of 1st Classes; when one had nearly final say on what got written into evals; and when they had any sort of say who got on the flight schedule (including him/herself at times). Sometimes, this would spill overboard and Chiefs would definitely go behind the backs of JOs. I was lucky to have a great division Sr. Chief who pinned on Master Chief before we both left, but that wasn't the case for all of them - yet the Chief podium only grew in stature. As mentioned above: don't tell the JO's they suck for never doing a walkout if you're going to text us or call us one by one or hold an "emergency AOM" on Monday to scold all of us because "CMC saw you guys all left, what's it like abandoning your posts?"

I think in some areas, we have moved in the right direction. I still hate NKOs, but I definitely notice I've done less of them since they eliminated some of them (maybe we could just please make the cyber awareness one good for 2 years? Please?). I thought the fleet squadron I was in had a good culture of physical fitness. I thought my final Skipper really started to "get it" and when, on our final CQ det, we were fully loaded coming off a deployment, with almost no more quals to possibly earn around the boat, our ready room was actually a fun place to be where you weren't scolded for playing cards instead of studying, and we even had an Officers' wide Madden Tourney. Colored t-shirts turned out to actually be a bigger morale booster than I thought they would be. Flight suits off base is huge too. NHA is still trying to be more like Tailhook (still a long way to go, like... any front office support past "once your work is done today you should go to NHA"), and even cooler is that Tailhook is allowing anyone who has landed on a carrier in any method to be a member now, which is great. It's just that the 3 things I said could improve just had such a big impact on my career, lifestyle/QOL, and work environment, and I really feel like they detracted from what would have been a lot less frustrating 3.5 years.

 

[Python]

On the Navy side of the house, how do we go about improving the culture?
3. Stop the Chief / CMC worship.

I thought your post had a lot of good points and was well written. I particularly want to anchor down on this one. Things have gotten wayyyyy overboard with this and I think that's one of the big points when people mention "culture." This is particularly relevant on this thread because I hear that it is not just a Navy problem, but a (worse) problem in the USAF as well. The only people to correct this is senior leadership, and I don't know if they want to (or have the courage to) tackle this one.