NEWS Air Force leadership talks frankly about pilot retention

[RadicalDude]

Meh. That assumes that everyone going to the airlines is "more desirable." I know from personal experience that some of those folks who are bailing to the airlines aren't necessarily our EP players. Bottom line, I think it's a wash from that particular issue. That doesn't mean that the fact that lots of folks are leaving isn't a problem, just not in the way you describe.

I will couch it by saying I have a myopic first shore tour JO viewpoint.

They did announce today that there was a 9% drop in take rate for the bonus this FY...

 

[RadicalDude]

I didn't mean to insult anyone who's been selected... vast majority seem like quality dudes. But there is a feeling (anecdotal) that the trend has not been a positive one lately.

 

[Recovering LSO]

https://www.navytimes.com/articles/...e-diminished-flight-hours-lack-of-spare-parts


FTA: "Burke said he’s seen some shortfalls in department heads — typically O-4s — in the electronic attack, strike fighter and helicopter mine countermeasure communities, and also among post-command officers — typically O-5s up for promotion to captain. The Navy is examining adjusting the bonuses to sweeten the pot for those officers, he said."

 

[SynixMan]

https://www.navytimes.com/articles/...e-diminished-flight-hours-lack-of-spare-parts


FTA: "Burke said he’s seen some shortfalls in department heads — typically O-4s — in the electronic attack, strike fighter and helicopter mine countermeasure communities, and also among post-command officers — typically O-5s up for promotion to captain. The Navy is examining adjusting the bonuses to sweeten the pot for those officers, he said."

Someone gets it:

“It’s not about money, it’s about doing what they came into the Marine Corps to do, which is to fly airplanes, to fix airplanes and serve those aircraft,” Brilakis said. “They want more time to fly, they want more parts to fix, and they’d like a little more time at home.”

 

[Swanee]

That was actually a common topic amongst the Prowler pilots in my squadron a few others when fleet issues were cutting short flight hours a few years ago. They often dreamed about having T-45's or even T-34's assigned to the wing to keep up flight time, just like the U-2 and B-2 wings have T-38's assigned to them. It came up because the USAF pilots were sent off to get some T-38 time in the middle of the RAG just to keep their flight pay.

So the Air Force is still doing this. A guy I fly sailplanes with in Hampton Roads is at ACC HQ at Langley AFB. He is an A-10 guy, but flying T-38s. Their main mission is a radar target (bait) for the local Raptor squadrons, but it's still flight time, and 1/2 the time they have enough gas for a BFM set or two after the Raptors are done with them.

The flying is just a side gig to his regular job, but apparently almost every non F-22 guy at ACC does this, and has enough flight time to actually keep currency.

It must be nice to be in a service that actually acknowledges why pilots stay in the military.

 

[pilot_man]

Well said. To be clear, I wonder if most military pilots would like to have more flight hours rather than a fatter airline paycheck?

I would say it is broader than just flight hours vs airline paychecks.

Here is what I think about it:
The bonus isn't enough anymore. By a longshot. PERS knows this but changing laws takes time and time isn't something we have a lot of here. That goes for Skipper bonuses as well. It just doesn't make financial sense to stay in.
Flight hours, manning, and equipment all suck right now. That is not helping people stay Navy.
The bullshit is too burdensome. No one wants to join a warfighting group to deal with the administrative crap.

If you want to fix the problem you are going to have to address it from all sides. I don't think it's going to be fixed by just paying more money. Not while the airlines are so hot for TACAIR guys. You also have to fix the overall moral of our warfighters. It might be time for us to look at how we do things in the Navy. Maybe the AF is on to something with separating their MNTC and Ops squadrons. Just a thought.

On top of all of this, the BRS isn't going to help matters. I don't see guys being as worried about making it to 20 if they have something built up already. Especially for 40% now.

 

[CommodoreMid]

VP tried splitting out the maintenance types almost 10 years ago, did not go so hot for a lot of reasons. Granted, it was before my time, but the stories I heard from DHs and front offices made it sound like it made the typical OPS/MX divide 100 times worse.

 

[Python]

Here is what I think about it:
The bonus isn't enough anymore. By a longshot. PERS knows this but changing laws takes time and time isn't something we have a lot of here. That goes for Skipper bonuses as well. It just doesn't make financial sense to stay in.
Flight hours, manning, and equipment all suck right now. That is not helping people stay Navy.
The bullshit is too burdensome. No one wants to join a warfighting group to deal with the administrative crap.

If you want to fix the problem you are going to have to address it from all sides. I don't think it's going to be fixed by just paying more money. Not while the airlines are so hot for TACAIR guys. You also have to fix the overall moral of our warfighters. It might be time for us to look at how we do things in the Navy. Maybe the AF is on to something with separating their MNTC and Ops squadrons. Just a thought.

I think this portion sums up everything perfectly.

 

[Recovering LSO]

On top of all of this, the BRS isn't going to help matters. I don't see guys being as worried about making it to 20 if they have something built up already. Especially for 40% now.

This.

 

[robav8r]

Kinda makes you wonder if anyone form PERS reads and thinks and communicates some of the ideas & comments that come from threads like this and AW in general . . . .

 

[pilot_man]

Second order effects: We will continue to select sub-par department heads and squadron COs, as their more desirable and employable peers flee to greeener pastures. It's not always the case, but I've definitely seen the whole "unemployable outside of the navy" thing working for many officers. Especially the ones who have too many kids and not enough money. Guys I know who took the bonus on day one weren't usually the cream of the crop...

The last 24 months have seen some truly shocking revelations at DH selection boards, and more recently, CO boards. Anyone with a pulse is making O-4.

They're literally pulling people off the bench to fill squadrons, sometimes. Tacair side of the house, there are multiple DHs (and a CAG) in the fleet who were never selected for that job by a board.

I can't see this situation getting any better anytime soon. Informal polling at the pointy-nose FRSs and VTs leads me to believe the Navy is going to continue to see quality people leaving in droves. Some to the airlines, many to MBA programs, and others elsewhere (ANG/contracting/etc...)

This is what I've been saying for a while. If you look at CAPT Dwyer's Tailhook brief from this year there is a very telling sign that he basically glosses right over. (from around time 19:00) If you look at the small red line for DHs needed to fill seats or Slate requirements, for VFA and VAQ pilots that line is magically right at the divider for those getting out and those staying in. Is it that they are that accurate at filling seats or is it that they are grabbing dudes that normally would have been put to pasture to fill the vacancies then saying that they are meeting all of the requirements? I've seen guys who thought they were going to spend the rest of their careers in the test world surprisingly make DH.
I'd love to see this graph as a trend over time. Or some analysis on the quality of the pool of eligibles now vs the pool 5 or 10 years ago.

 

[STOVLer]

http://www.military.com/daily-news/...retention-bonuses-for-f35-v22-f18-pilots.html

"Seems legit"

 

[Pags]

As an observation 3+yrs removed from ACDU: you couldn't pay me enough to go back and that's based on QOL alone. What are the biggies:
-my current working hours are sane and sustainable. I can be counted on to make it in time to pick up my kids from day care and to get them to stuff on time.
-my wife can work. She know longer carries the stigma of "military spouse" that many employers find distasteful.
-I don't have to move. Peers who are still ACDU have moved 2-3 times since I last did. Having shit pile up in my basements opposed to getting purged every 1-3yrs is a nice problem to have
-my current pay is pretty good. Paying taxes on all my income and state taxes is a pain but is worth it.
-admin overhead has gone down. I'm a USN govie and have to do all the same GMT crap that the ACDU guys do, but somehow it's far less painful than in the Squadron.
-my job doesn't include hundreds of unrelated chicken shit tasks competing for my attention. I don't have to worry about PT, shined boots, sunglasses on my head, glares from Chiefs/SWOs, zipper height, log book, flight physical, instrument approaches, working hours, crew rest, can I have a beer, haircuts, the next move, the next deployment, the next ISIC inspection I have to take seriously, and so on.
-I don't have rules that seem only to exist to make it impossible for me to do my own job.

No amount of extra flight time or $$$ would make up for having to deal with that crap again

 

[ChuckMK23]

//www.c-span.org/video/?426158-1/military-officials-explain-reasons-behind-pilot-shortage

 

[ChuckMK23]

and now Army Aviation:

https://www.armytimes.com/articles/...uses-to-fix-aviation-warrant-officer-shortage