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AH-1Z and UH-1Y Doomed?

Raptor2216

Raptor2216

Registered User
Well, take this for what its worth but Lieutenant General John G. Castellaw
(Deputy Commandant for Aviation) was in p-cola for the ball and during his PME, he specifically told us that the yankee is due to be in service by 2008 time frame and the zulu is to follow. I will say from my point of view, he seemed to be fairly confident the way he put it but I guess its the job of a General officer to sound confident in what he says.
 
Lawman

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
C-Mike said:
Any quick thoughts on why the Marines haven't been interested in the AH-64D...the best attack helicopter in world? (I'm sure this will be/has been debated). The Marines considered the Alpha model long ago, but went the way of the Cobra instead.

Despite the potential argument for an improved FLIR/PNVS, the avionics suite is pretty darn advanced in the Longbow, not to mention quite a few stories exist from from guys who claim they never would have walked away from those "rough landings" if they were driving the Cobra.
Click to expand...

You can go ahead and argue the merits of x vs y but really your dealing with two differntly designed attack helo's. The Cobra was never ment to do the original job of the Apache, that being to take a fulda gap situation and go plink off tanks from outside their engagement range as they advanced on Allied positions. Yes the Marine Corps looked at the Apache when it was first coming on line. Put yourself in their position and ask yourself "Do we really need a new helo vice upgrading a combat proven one capable of doing its job and will the expense of a new and unproven platform be worth it."

Fact of the matter is for such a heralded aircraft the Apache what a lot of people would call a terrible record. Mission up rates have been appaling when compaired directly to the Cobra. Army leadership in general has also been seriously called into question as to their knowledge in how to conduct operations with an attack Helo (See Task Force Eagle Claw and that little "Charge of the Light Brigade" attack during the Invasion of Iraq). Talk to those drivers and they will tell you in the last few years there has been a serious shift in the methodology that they use to train. Most of their new training comes straight from the Marine Corps playbook.

As for survivability... Skids vs Wheels and a lot of learned knowledge from actual combat. That long war in the Jungle did a lot for all forms of aircraft development especially the Helicopter.
 
coolhand58d

coolhand58d

New Member
I have to agree with Lawman. I dont think the Cobra and Apache are used in the same capacity. Being a 58D driver we work closely with the ground elements, similar to your Cobra pilots. In 2001 we did an exersice with some USMC units in savannah. It was interesting to see us do the same mission side by side and the tactics they employed. I think with the Apache you have a limited visabilty looking down, and it is a big acft. Alot of 58D guys are former Army Cobra guys, and if you ask them they will tell you the Cobra was a great platform and they wish it was still in the army inventory. I dont think the apache would suit the MC mission profile.
 
E

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
J

jamnww

Hangar Four
pilot
coolhand58d said:
I have to agree with Lawman. I dont think the Cobra and Apache are used in the same capacity. Being a 58D driver we work closely with the ground elements, similar to your Cobra pilots. In 2001 we did an exersice with some USMC units in savannah. It was interesting to see us do the same mission side by side and the tactics they employed. I think with the Apache you have a limited visabilty looking down, and it is a big acft. Alot of 58D guys are former Army Cobra guys, and if you ask them they will tell you the Cobra was a great platform and they wish it was still in the army inventory. I dont think the apache would suit the MC mission profile.
Click to expand...

funny to note that the Army demonstration team (with helicopters) uses Cobras and is commanded by a former Marine Cobra guy...
 
BigRed389

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Zilch said:
You guys might find this article about the Sea Apache interesting if you haven't read about it in the past: http://avia.russian.ee/helicopters_eng/mcdonnell_sea_apache-r.html

I don't see it coming back ever, but it's cool to read about. Personally, I like the image of the battleship in the background. Gives you an idea of the timeframe, eh?
Click to expand...

That reminds me, I thought I read somewhere the Brits were recently doing sea trials with a navalized version of the Apache...
 
C

C-Mike

Registered User
BigRed389 said:
That reminds me, I thought I read somewhere the Brits were recently doing sea trials with a navalized version of the Apache...
Click to expand...

That's an affirmative, however they are not yet operational I believe.

No point in responding/debating many of the accurate points that have been brought up in Apache vs. Cobra mission profile, employment, tactics, etc. No doubt the Marines utilize their aircraft a bit differently, and yes visibility (close in lateral) isn't as good per say as the Cobra or when sticking your head out the door in the 58s. Additionally there of course are the innumerable benefits to upgrading preexisting A/C vice procuring new ones...

I'd say my main point was simply that the Apache (to date) has been the most technologically advanced and capable, and if there is any question to that with the imminent -1Zs, the pending Block III Longbows will put that to rest. Also the Apache is inherently more crash worthy by design. Guess I was just fishing for the opinions of the folks with the experience (of course Wannabes with some degree of knowledge are welcome to chime in as well...I try to hang...:D )

It all boils down to different mission requirements, and good 'ole economics. It's interesting that the Army is leaning toward adopting moves from the MC playbook. I'll have to read up on that.
 
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