AH-1s and FACs

[Harrier Dude]

Delta Hornets too? So no more fast-mover FAC(A)'s?

Yes, Deltas too. That doesn't mean that FAC(A) is going away for fast movers. The A-10 and F-16 do it already to some extent. Granted, they're air force and probably AFU. I haven't ever dropped for one of them, but they're supposedly out there working. The AV-8B is working a FAC(A) program now, but I don't know the status of it.

The NFO mafia has repeatedly said that it can't be done, but with the advances in technology in the F-35 the workload is supposed to be reduced. I've done SCAR in a Harrier with a Litening POD and it can be fairly task-loaded. Procedurally it's similar to FAC(A). I've also done simulated FAC(A) in a two seat Harrier (TAV-8B) as a FRS instructor and agree it's a lot easier with two aircrew working it. Single seat FAC(A) can be done, though.

 

[HeyJoe]

Yes, Deltas too. That doesn't mean that FAC(A) is going away for fast movers. The A-10 and F-16 do it already to some extent. Granted, they're air force and probably AFU. I haven't ever dropped for one of them, but they're supposedly out there working. The AV-8B is working a FAC(A) program now, but I don't know the status of it.

The NFO mafia has repeatedly said that it can't be done, but with the advances in technology in the F-35 the workload is supposed to be reduced. I've done SCAR in a Harrier with a Litening POD and it can be fairly task-loaded. Procedurally it's similar to FAC(A). I've also done simulated FAC(A) in a two seat Harrier (TAV-8B) as a FRS instructor and agree it's a lot easier with two aircrew working it. Single seat FAC(A) can be done, though.

Concur that it can and has been done although over Kosovo, off the tanker Hornets would listen to the FAC (A) assignments and try to time it to get a two seat Tomcat or Marine Hornet FAC(A) or rather than USAF single seat...that's where two seat FAC(A)s came into their own and Navy finally relented and decided to go for F/A-18F for every airwing.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Was that because they were single seat, or USAF that they were avoided? I can see avoiding the USAF FACs (ground and air) due to max buffoonery witnessed in the past.

 

[HeyJoe]

Was that because they were single seat, or USAF that they were avoided? I can see avoiding the USAF FACs (ground and air) due to max buffoonery witnessed in the past.

The story was related to me by CO of VFA-15 who said that it was his belief, as a card-carrying single seat mafia type, that the two seat FAC(A)s were the ones who proved time and time again that they could get them targets right away. I hear USAF is taking it more seriously these days after having Tomcats upstage them in OIF when operating side by side in Qatar.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Personally, I think that the USAF is completely AFU when it comes to CAS from both ends. I have never had a good experience with them, either as an attack pilot in the air, or a FAC on the ground. Complete buffoons. They may the Ace of the Base ina 4vX or on a deep strike, but they completely goon up CAS on a regular basis.

I have worked with F-14s on both ends and found them very professional and competant. Sorry to say that I was surprised by that, but impressed nonetheless. I even had a couple of navy dudes (including 2 chicks) in my TACP school class who did really well as ground FACs during the course.

How fast they can get you targets isn't really the determining factor in CAS (IMHO). SCAR? Sure. But the defining charactoristic for CAS is how well they accomplish the fire support goals of the ground commander. I guess we should ask some of them what they think.

I guess we've strayed fairly far ffrom the original subject, but good points. I think that the F-35 will make the single seat FAC(A) a more realistic possibility with the same standards that we have now for the 2 seat types. The debate seems to get muddied by some (no offense) NFO mafia types looking to justify their own future. We may ALL be out of a job someday if the UAV folks get their way. Then I'll have to justify my own job. I doubt it'll ever get that far, but you never know.

 

[HeyJoe]

I have worked with F-14s on both ends and found them very professional and competant. Sorry to say that I was surprised by that, but impressed nonetheless. I even had a couple of navy dudes (including 2 chicks) in my TACP school class who did really well as ground FACs during the course.

You can thank MAWTS and the insertion of top 30% of of Intruder community into Tomcats for that. MAWTS provided all the initial FAC(A) training for Tomcat aircrews and set the standard.

How fast they can get you targets isn't really the determining factor in CAS (IMHO). SCAR? Sure. But the defining charactoristic for CAS is how well they accomplish the fire support goals of the ground commander. I guess we should ask some of them what they think.

Concur, but Kosovo had no ground troops in the mix to ask...the FAC(A) aircrews were impressed into kill boxes and you could only drop on their call. Tomcat crews even developed the Laser Maverick tactic of lasing into holes in buildings where armor tracks led and having a second LMAV coming behind it to nail the survivors who scurried for cover. Kosovo was a little different, but stranger things have happened.

I guess we've strayed fairly far ffrom the original subject, but good points. I think that the F-35 will make the single seat FAC(A) a more realistic possibility with the same standards that we have now for the 2 seat types. The debate seems to get muddied by some (no offense) NFO mafia types looking to justify their own future. We may ALL be out of a job someday if the UAV folks get their way. Then I'll have to justify my own job. I doubt it'll ever get that far, but you never know.

Excellent points...UCAVs won't necessarily put you out of a job, just out of the cockpit in exchange for an airconditioned console at Creech (if USAF can help it). LOL!

I do wonder if AEA can go single seat and what USMC will do when Prowlers start dying off...LTGEN Hough was heard to mention a two place JSF.......

 

[Harrier Dude]

Kosovo had no ground troops in the mix to ask...the FAC(A) aircrews were impressed into kill boxes and you could only drop on their call.

It sounds like you were doing SCAR. If there was no integration of fires with maneuver forces, then it wasn't CAS. This has been a HUGE part of what I've been doing lately, namely participating in doctrinal disputes over the definition of CAS. As noted before in earlier posts, the air force has hijacked the system and turned it into a sea-lawyer "how air power can win the war" load of bullsh!t.

I've been trying to explain this to the grunts that I work with, and it's frustrating. Everything has been so regulated in the name of standardization that the effects are beinbg nullified. The training of FACs (and particularly JTACs) has creeped into the unmanageable, all in the name of standardization.

One of the big problems is that staffs keep asking for FACs and JTACs to do things that aren't CAS because they are afraid to drop without one. That's why the definition is so important. If you're not integrating fires with maneuver, then you're not doing CAS. If you're not doing CAS, then you don't need a FAC, FAC(A), or JTAC.

While SCAR is similar to FAC(A), the ground equivilant is terminal guidance operations (TGO). For instance, if a RECON team is on a hill lasing a target a mile away (not that physical distance is the determinig factor), he's doing TGO, not CAS. He's not integrating fires, so the aircraft retains release authority. It's a seemingly subtle difference, but it's causing major headaches in the community

To make matters worse, the army has started their Joint Fires Observer course, which will try to codify the TGO qualification. That's being asked for by requesting a "type 2 and 3 CAS" capability, which of course, is nonsense. Even though it's supposedly "Joint", the USMC (not sure about USN) has not signed on to this qual becasue every grunt should already know how to do this and we don't want to have another qual to make, build and track. Just more ass-pain for ZERO additional effects.

Concur about MAWTS, though. I was/will be again stationed in Yuma and work with them frequently. I graduated from their WTI Air Officers Course last fall and learned a lot about the system and all of the new gucci gear coming out.

 

[HeyJoe]

One of the big problems is that staffs keep asking for FACs and JTACs to do things that aren't CAS because they are afraid to drop without one. That's why the definition is so important. If you're not integrating fires with maneuver, then you're not doing CAS. If you're not doing CAS, then you don't need a FAC, FAC(A), or JTAC.

While SCAR is similar to FAC(A), the ground equivilant is terminal guidance operations (TGO). For instance, if a RECON team is on a hill lasing a target a mile away (not that physical distance is the determinig factor), he's doing TGO, not CAS. He's not integrating fires, so the aircraft retains release authority. It's a seemingly subtle difference, but it's causing major headaches in the community

Concur with definitions, but you're looking back at ops and trying to appy today's definitions. During Kosovo, ATO mandated FAC(A) aircrews and NOBODY dropped without their permission...even if you were a FAC(A) aircrew (unless you were designated by ATO). Somewhat anal and perculiar to Kosovo, but FAC(A) was almost a novelty in carrier airwing up until then. It got recognition and support folks started defining when, why and how (ergo emergence of SCAR into syallabus at Fallon and elsewhere).

Then came OEF and unprecedented support of SPECOPS by TACAIR...as you note TGO became name of the game and fast forward to OIF and ROVER III. Time for new thread if we go on further.....

 

[eddie]

Then came OEF and unprecedented support of SPECOPS by TACAIR...as you note TGO became name of the game and fast forward to OIF and ROVER III. Time for new thread if we go on further.....

I for one, would love to hear more of what you can tell on this board!

 

[Slammer2]

Come now wannabes. Gather round.

 

[skidkid]

I dont have too much to add to this, I think it has been convered well, a FAC tour will be one of the best tours you do in the Marine Corps but you will be ready to get back to a squadron at the end of it.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Time for new thread if we go on further.....

I agree. I am new to this forum and don't know how to start a new thread. If you start it, I'll come. I should probably do it myself, seeing as I pretty much derailed the conversation about doing a FAC tour.

I've used ROVER III, Litening II, STRIKELINK, and several other gucci pieces of gear from both ends. I'm no MAWTS instructor, but I can tell you what they're like (within the bounds of proper classification) if you haven't used them.

By the way, from a previous post, I remember LtGen Hough talking about a two seat EA version, but as far as I know nothing ever came of it. They're not even planning on having a 2 seat trainer I don't think. That'll be fun to wave the first few passes!

Also, you're absolutley right about applying todays standards and TTP on "older" conflicts. It's even very different now than in OIF 1. Go figure.

See you in the new thread, if you feel like starting one.

s/f,

 

[Herc_Dude]

I'm in the PLC program right now, ocs next summer. I'm just the type that likes to get info beforehand and make sure I know what's going on even though I won't have to worry about it for awhile. In regards to airframe, I'd love to fly a hornet, but from what I hear Marines are getting stuck with older equipment and the flight hours are starting to dwindle. My next choice would be the cobra, if not just for the fact that it seems to kick ass in more ways than I can count. Also, I don't know, but it looks like the JSF might be one of my choices? I don't know if I like it though, I think I'm just old fashion (coming from a 22 year old) and like my fighters super sonic. As for FAC, I suppose that when I'm a Marine, if I'm not flying, I won't want to be doing cubical work. If the option is open to me I'll take getting in the mud over faxing TPS reports. My brother is at Parris Island right now, MOS infantry, so I'll out rank him, but he's sure as hell not going to have more "fun" than me.

BUT, like you've said, and others have said countless times on the forums, whatever airframe I get, I'll love it and I'll be damned sure to do my best. My grandfather (WWII Marine) said, "Marines may gripe, but it just gives them all the more reason to kick ass when they get a chance." I was 13 when I heard that, so it really stuck.

I love the motivation you have buddy. Don't lose that. Just remember that for the next 9 months or more (figure a little less than 3 months at OCS, 6 months of TBS) you are gonna hear that the ground is where its at. The whole focus of TBS is going to be ground ops, and you are not gonna hear much about the air side. Hey, thats the purpose of TBS, so no complaints about that. But us air guys are kinda the ugly step-children around this place. Just work hard, learn as much as you can while going through the process, and keep in the back of your mind that you will be in Pcola before you know it. I have our TBS Mess Night tomorrow night, and Ill be down there in about 2 weeks. Im starting to get back into that air mindset, but it has been forced into the back of my head for a while now. I wish you best of luck, and remember out there at FEX III in some fighting hole, in the rain, that Pcola will be just around the corner. Let me know if you have any questions. Good luck, and s/f.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Very good points about OCS/TBS. Also, try not to drink too deeply from the Kool-Aid like I did at TBS. I was very brainwashed about the grunts and nearly dropped my air contract to go infantry. Luckily, cooler heads prevailed and I ended up where I belong. Not that there's anything wrong with grunts, it's just easy to lose your focus on your goals and get consumed by the "Yut, Yut!". Have fun, and good luck. s/f,

 

[Lawman]

Very good points about OCS/TBS. Also, try not to drink too deeply from the Kool-Aid like I did at TBS. I was very brainwashed about the grunts and nearly dropped my air contract to go infantry. Luckily, cooler heads prevailed and I ended up where I belong. Not that there's anything wrong with grunts, it's just easy to lose your focus on your goals and get consumed by the "Yut, Yut!". Have fun, and good luck. s/f,

Ive been noticing that sentament more and more. Its really obvious that some of the guys in our pool have bought into the whole "Infantry is a mans job, everything else is crap" mentality. But I cant say they bought into it without "help" from some of the Active Marines we deal with. There was the gunny giving some of us Air guys a bit of ribbing about what platform we were looking toward, especially the guys wanting TACAIR, statements like "all your ever gonna do is drop blue death." This is just one of several instances I can recall of seeing a rift between the MOS groups. Speaking with a couple active duty, non-infantry, officers at non-military events the general consensus I got was "Dont let the bullet heads get you down."