AF Drone Article

[Swanee]

The point I was getting at is that until the Marine Corps buys something big enough to carry weapons or an EW system, reconnaissance and "glorified artillery spotter" is where we're at.

We carry EW systems on MQ-21. We deployed with them this past summer and they are going out on the 15th MEU this month. We do a lot more as far as integrating with the rest of the ACE. We conduct our own versions of SCAR and CAS. We do a lot of aerial recce, we do a little arty spotting (though really, we roll that into terminal guidance ops as well).

But you are right, the Shadow was designed as an arty spotter. We're doing more with it because we can. MQ-21 has it's own capabilities. The next step is group 5 assets. The Army has a more capable airplane than the Shadow, but they still pretty much use it as a big shadow (160th guys are a bit different).

 

[Treetop Flyer]

We carry EW systems on MQ-21. We deployed with them this past summer and they are going out on the 15th MEU this month. We do a lot more as far as integrating with the rest of the ACE. We conduct our own versions of SCAR and CAS. We do a lot of aerial recce, we do a little arty spotting (though really, we roll that into terminal guidance ops as well).

But you are right, the Shadow was designed as an arty spotter. We're doing more with it because we can. MQ-21 has it's own capabilities. The next step is group 5 assets. The Army has a more capable airplane than the Shadow, but they still pretty much use it as a big shadow (160th guys are a bit different).

"Your own versions of SCAR and CAS"? I'm not trying to be a dick but if you don't have weapons you're not doing those things. You may be able to help, but it's not some special version of it.

 

[Uncle Fester]

That was my experience with Fire Scout. It could do a lot more, but it'd require more money and community sponsorship, neither of which are really there. My distinct impression was that the helo guys couldn't get rid of them fast enough. I think an answer might be to stand up some sort of Unmanned Reconnaissance Wing with responsibility for all big Fleet robots, but frankly I'd be very surprised if the Big Navy politics lined up to make it happen.

You need winged aviators flying these things, and they need to be guys with actual manned aircraft flight time in their training pipeline. I think Swanee's proposal for a pipeline isn't a bad one. There's a bunch of reasons. You need to anticipate what's likely to get the AV in trouble - weather, performance envelopes, etc - not just read gauges. We had to fly our AVs into Class C airspace, so being able to communicate intelligently with ATC, look at charts and know how to stay away from traffic, and understand rules and procedures paid off huge. Piss off ATC in those situations and you're likely to get kicked out of their airspace and/or be grounded by the host country. We were flying as a four-person crew (UAC, pilot, SO, mission coordinator) and everybody had enough flight time to easily click into place for making risk assessments and mission decisions.

It seems like a great way to use Flying Warrants, if Big Navy doesn't want to dedicate commissioned officers to a UAS 'career'. There was talk of enlisted AVOs and reviving the NAP idea...you could certainly do that, but very hopefully not in the way I heard, which was in essence "give them a few hours in the sim and send them to the Fleet". One version I saw the EAVOs would have zero time in control of an actual aircraft until they got to the Fleet.

 

[Gatordev]

"Your own versions of SCAR and CAS"? I'm not trying to be a dick but if you don't have weapons you're not doing those things. You may be able to help, but it's not some special version of it.

Maybe it's different in the MC, but "doing SCAR" on the Navy side doesn't necessarily mean you physically push the pickle every time. Oh, SIPR AW, where are you?

That was my experience with Fire Scout. It could do a lot more, but it'd require more money and community sponsorship, neither of which are really there. My distinct impression was that the helo guys couldn't get rid of them fast enough. I think an answer might be to stand up some sort of Unmanned Reconnaissance Wing with responsibility for all big Fleet robots, but frankly I'd be very surprised if the Big Navy politics lined up to make it happen.

I got a pretty decent update/insight/brief on the latest and greatest with FS in November. I don't think it's fair to say that the helo community is trying to get rid of it. It seems like there's two "factions," the SOF support that you did and the conventional SSC/whatever that the AC Navy is doing. HSM West was actually willing to keep them, but since they're supposed to be moving over to HSC land, well, then so be it. The SOF-support side was a separate animal that I don't think anyone except for SOF was all that excited about, which I'd guess is where you were getting the vibe.

 

[Swanee]

"Your own versions of SCAR and CAS"? I'm not trying to be a dick but if you don't have weapons you're not doing those things. You may be able to help, but it's not some special version of it.

Asking loaded questions and correcting an answer given to you based upon your limited knowledge of the UAV community is being a dick. (smilies and shit) That's like me as a Hornet dude tell you that you don't do ACM or run missile timelines in the Harrier world because you don't have all of the capabilities that a Hornet has. You do that stuff in your own way as you can.

Our guys are out in Yuma supporting every WTI class. Pretty soon VMU-1 will be moving to Yuma. Come out and see what a VMU squadron does, and talk to the guys who are moving the program forward. There are a lot of smart dudes from across the communities in the Marine Corps that are guiding this program- most of them are Captains, so you'll get a straight answer.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Asking loaded questions and correcting an answer given to you based upon your limited knowledge of the UAV community is being a dick. (smilies and shit) That's like me as a Hornet dude tell you that you don't do ACM or run missile timelines in the Harrier world because you don't have all of the capabilities that a Hornet has. You do that stuff in your own way as you can.

Our guys are out in Yuma supporting every WTI class. Pretty soon VMU-1 will be moving to Yuma. Come out and see what a VMU squadron does, and talk to the guys who are moving the program forward. There are a lot of smart dudes from across the communities in the Marine Corps that are guiding this program- most of them are Captains, so you'll get a straight answer.

I have a pretty good idea of what VMU's capabilities are. I've flown with them, dropped with them lasing, almost got killed by one, and been blocked from killing shitheads in combat two separate times by them.

I do agree that a rag student talking shit about other platforms tactics would be dumb, regardless of the platform.

They have some good capabilities, and it's neat that you seem to have developed a taste for kool aide. The Marine Corps still has a ways to go before they get serious about UAV's.

 

[Hotdogs]

and been blocked from killing shitheads in combat two separate times by them.

I bet that was an interesting debrief.

 

[Swanee]

I have a pretty good idea of what VMU's capabilities are. I've flown with them, dropped with them lasing, almost got killed by one, and been blocked from killing shitheads in combat two separate times by them.

I do agree that a rag student talking shit about other platforms tactics would be dumb, regardless of the platform.

They have some good capabilities, and it's neat that you seem to have developed a taste for kool aide. The Marine Corps still has a ways to go before they get serious about UAV's.

You missed the point in my comment- so I'll just say it- don't be a dick. It's easy to make fun of the new kid on the block, call him a retard and tell him he doesn't know what he's doing and that no one takes him seriously. Cool, go high five your running back while wearing your letter jacket and enjoy your glory days.

The Marine Corps is taking UAS very seriously. Read the AvPlan.

This is going nowhere- do you have anything positive to add to the thread or do you want to continue down the path of waiving our dicks around while you argue that your manned TACAIR dick is still bigger than mine?

 

[81montedriver]

I haven't seen a FAC's perspective on UAV's yet so I'll chime in. Granted my experiences are only in training but it was with live air so close enough. Yes having a UAV on station adds to your airspace management a bit because if you have mortars and arty in play, that is yet another asset you have to worry about deconflicting. However, a small offset usually solves that problem. I've worked w/ the MQ-21 and I believe it will be a promising asset to the Marine Corps. Compared to the rest of our assets, no one beats its on station time. If you manage your time correctly, it can pull 10 digit grids for you with a low enough TLE to facilitate BOC attacks and low time to kill. Without a laser designator, by the time I've had a section of certain types of aircraft correlated, I can maybe get three attacks in before it's time to tank or RTB.

The ability to provide TGO as a third party laser is an additional benefit if the FAC/JTAC on the ground does not have that ability. The MQ-21 operators I was speaking to directly on the radio were very professional and intimately familiar w/ the CAS 12 step process, lasing procedures and laser comms. I can't speak to USAF UAV operator capability but I would not want to be w/o some sort of UAV capability in a combat environment.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

You missed the point in my comment- so I'll just say it- don't be a dick. It's easy to make fun of the new kid on the block, call him a retard and tell him he doesn't know what he's doing and that no one takes him seriously. Cool, go high five your running back while wearing your letter jacket and enjoy your glory days.

The Marine Corps is taking UAS very seriously. Read the AvPlan.

This is going nowhere- do you have anything positive to add to the thread or do you want to continue down the path of waiving our dicks around while you argue that your manned TACAIR dick is still bigger than mine?

I'm sorry that you're getting your feelings hurt. This is a discussion, but apparently you thought you were in a dick measuring contest. If I wanted to talk shit about the Marine UAV community I could go down that road. The point I was making is that the Marine Corps is way behind the Air Force in capability. Until they get something bigger and better than a shadow it will be a mostly notional capability. In my personal experience, Air Force UAV's killed a lot of bad guys, and Marine UAV's got in the way and crashed like mishaps were going out of style.

They have come a long way, but they have a long way to go. I hope you kick ass and help make that happen. Here's an e-high five.

 

[Uncle Fester]

I got a pretty decent update/insight/brief on the latest and greatest with FS in November. I don't think it's fair to say that the helo community is trying to get rid of it. It seems like there's two "factions," the SOF support that you did and the conventional SSC/whatever that the AC Navy is doing. HSM West was actually willing to keep them, but since they're supposed to be moving over to HSC land, well, then so be it. The SOF-support side was a separate animal that I don't think anyone except for SOF was all that excited about, which I'd guess is where you were getting the vibe.

Fair enough; I've been unplugged from that world for a year now (holy shit, it's been a year already?). I know I got a distinct "I'm glad you Reservists are doing this so that we don't have to" vibe from the AD HSM guys, and there was little to no interest from HSM East in building infrastructure or keeping the capability. I mean, they wanted to own it because it was a helo flying off small decks, but more like my 6-year-old and her toys...she doesn't want them, but doesn't want anyone else to have them, either. In contrast, the VP community was putting a shitload of money into BAMS/Triton. Witness the big-ass new UAS building across the street from VP-30.

What I really didn't get was the dichotomy in attitude you mentioned - they didn't seem to like or want to do ISR, which has money, influential customers, a mission, and is something you can't really do very well with a -60 - and wouldn't want to if you could - but were interested in adapting it for SSC, VBSS, etc...doing things you can do with a 'Hawk, in other words, but less capably.

 

[SynixMan]

Fester, you're witnessing career conservatism at its best, as I'm sure you know. Just like the Air Force a few years ago, we have no idea if it's a "thing" or merely a passing fad of the current conflict. Creating a career path around it is dangerous, so we divert guys.

Last I saw, HUQ-1 is on the preference sheet for Helo JO Shore Tours, but it's a huge wild card. Maybe they're not doing a good job selling it, but as far as I can see:

Pros
-You get to play with cutting edge toys
-You get to do some cool shit for cool people, and maybe with the MQ-8C also start using weapons
Cons
-You go on a deploying frigate/ddg for a "shore tour"
-You may/may not be able to actually fly, depending on the Det construct and if they have manned helos

Oh, and 50/50 it's the career equivalent of going to Station SAR, wherein you have no chance of coming back for DH. That's a tough sell to someone with eyes on a career or the outside.

As far as implementation, that's dudes doing what they know best and trying to adapt it to something different. Not surprising, but it happens with any sea change.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Pros
-You get to play with cutting edge toys
-You get to do some cool shit for cool people, and maybe with the MQ-8C also start using weapons
Cons
-You go on a deploying frigate/ddg for a "shore tour"
-You may/may not be able to actually fly, depending on the Det construct and if they have manned helos

I would add to the Pros column:
-Put a high demand/6 figure starting salary skill on your resume
http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/25/news/drone-pilot-degree/

 

[Uncle Fester]

...Last I saw, HUQ-1 is on the preference sheet for Helo JO Shore Tours...

Wait, what? I thought that had been smothered in the cradle.

I get that it's career conservatism...it's impossible to predict how it'll look to a promotion or screen board in a few years time, but whatever happens with the MQ-8, drones aren't going away any time soon. Couldn't hurt to have it on the resume.

Flip side of that is, I wouldn't count on any of those six-figure drone pilot jobs on the outside. FAA's nowhere near comfortable with civilian drones yet.

However comma a job with GA, N-G or InSitu is a different matter, of course...the drones will keep flying, and that aforementioned career conservatism would, I'd bet, mean there will be lots of those spots filled by contractors, and there definitely is good money in that if you're willing to deploy. The NGC AVOs we had on our det were making triple the money we were, doing the exact same job. One of the guys who went to the 'Stan told me his year there paid off his house.

 

[Gatordev]

Fair enough; I've been unplugged from that world for a year now (holy shit, it's been a year already?). I know I got a distinct "I'm glad you Reservists are doing this so that we don't have to" vibe from the AD HSM guys, and there was little to no interest from HSM East in building infrastructure or keeping the capability. I mean, they wanted to own it because it was a helo flying off small decks, but more like my 6-year-old and her toys...she doesn't want them, but doesn't want anyone else to have them, either. In contrast, the VP community was putting a shitload of money into BAMS/Triton. Witness the big-ass new UAS building across the street from VP-30.

Yeah, don't disagree there. And will now shut my mouth to keep myself out of trouble.

What I really didn't get was the dichotomy in attitude you mentioned - they didn't seem to like or want to do ISR, which has money, influential customers, a mission, and is something you can't really do very well with a -60 - and wouldn't want to if you could - but were interested in adapting it for SSC, VBSS, etc...doing things you can do with a 'Hawk, in other words, but less capably.

Until the SOF-support mission came along, I think it was always a platform in search of a mission. It seems like they at least have a plan now, for whatever that's worth.