AF Drone Article

[SynixMan]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...e-fleet-at-breaking-point-air-force-says.html

Thought this was relevant to the group. Interesting that the equivalent of a USFF memo to the CNO made it into the presses. For all we talk about "Someone eventually has to say "No" to the demand", looks like someone is actually doing it in the sister service.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Even the Air Force’s elite Weapons School—the service’s much more extensive and in-depth version of the Navy’s famous Top Gun school—course for drone pilots was suspended in an effort to train new rookie operators.

Sorry, patch wearers. You don't have shit on Air Force UAV "pilot" patch wearers.

 

[BigBadBoJenkins]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...e-fleet-at-breaking-point-air-force-says.html

Thought this was relevant to the group. Interesting that the equivalent of a USFF memo to the CNO made it into the presses. For all we talk about "Someone eventually has to say "No" to the demand", looks like someone is actually doing it in the sister service.

Sounds like they are trying to say no at least. I wonder who leaked the memo?

I was surprised at how manning intensive the UAVs are. They want 10 people per CAP (four aircraft). That's more than I would have thought, but I'm also completely ignorant to the world of UAVs. Sounds like they are doing a lot of work right now.

 

[wlawr005]

I wondered the same thing. I guessed it was because of the mission duration times those guys put up with.

 

[BigRed389]

Reads like a vicious cycle of poor retention, undermanning, robbing training units, pissed off UAV operators, back to poor retention.

 

[nittany03]

I was surprised at how manning intensive the UAVs are. They want 10 people per CAP (four aircraft). That's more than I would have thought, but I'm also completely ignorant to the world of UAVs. Sounds like they are doing a lot of work right now.

Not horribly well-edjumacated on UAV ops, but don't they take a crew of two, pilot and sensor operator? So 4 aircraft would have 4 combat crews, plus 2 spares. Doesn't seem horribly out of whack at first glance.

 

[Swanee]

As a UAV guy perhaps I can shed some light on how the communities works. It is true that the guys flying the tactical portion of the mission are in CONUS, the UAVs are not launched via a ground control station in the USA. They actually have dudes deployed to wherever the MQ-1/9 is based so that th,ey can preflight, start, taxi, take-off and fly to the hand off point. The reason being 2 fold- one is that you have a "rated aviator" (In the AF the RPA/UAV guys come from a pipeline that results in a BUQ-4 qual and a winging designation) conducting a preflight of an airplane that is carrying live ordnance, and two- that the satellite link has an amount of delay (no more on that in this forum) that is acceptable for all regimes of flight except for take off and landing (especially landing an airplane that you have to have to do the whole flaring finesse maneuver to land).

On top of that depending on who is doing the tasking requires certain requirements (the difference between ISR and Aerial Recce doesn't sound like much, but it's significant as ISR requires a lot of Intel folks to do some in depth analysis, and nothing really moves quickly with them). And all of the guys flying still follow all of those 3710 type rules involving crew day and crew rest. We also brief in depth just like every other aviation squadron. Imagine briefing a 25 hour + sortie among 3 aircrews- with your launch and recovery aircrew 1/2 way around the world. (We in the Marine Corps don't do it that way, but the AF does)

On top of current operational requirements there isn't an exercise out there that doesn't want UAV support. VMU-2 last year had some type of det gone for 45 out of 52 weeks. Many times the entire squadron deploys for ITX and WTI, as well as meeting combat deployment requirements with smaller DETs, and there are always the constant training DETs. Plus a lot of those dudes don't have the opportunity for B billets. Some of that is because the community is new and they haven't been written, and other times it's because there is a need for them in the fleet.

Then there is the problem of the "real pilot" vs 2nd string mentality. Like it or not UAV guys are doing some good work, but we have a hard time recognizing it. As a result you get the polar opposite stuff happening. Sure, the AF guys aren't really at risk, but that doesn't mean that what they do isn't pretty bad ass and effective. To coin a phrase they are putting warheads on foreheads with a lot more regularity than a lot of other manned platforms. When a Marine has to walk outside the wire to launch and recover an RQ-7B and put themselves in known areas where guys have been shot and killed by sniper fire- that's pretty dangerous. As dangerous as landing a Hornet on the boat at night? I don't know. I've landed the Hornet on the boat at night and that was scary- but I haven't had to strap on the flak and kevlar and don my rifle knowing that today might be the day that I have to do that shit that I learned how to do at TBS.

Sorry for the long winded post. I could go on and on about what I've learned coming from the manned TACAIR world to the unmanned TACAIR world.

 

[xmid]

As a UAV guy...

Do you think it's entirely necessary to train those rated pilots flying the UAV's in a Tacair platform before sending them off to fly UAV's? The only predator pilot I ever met was sent to through the F-16 B-course (or whatever it is they call their FRS) knowing that upon completion he would be flying UAV's for his first tour. That seems like a huge waste of money. Couldn't they get the same effect for a lot less $ from an extended tactical course in the T-38?

We've been fighting wars with robots for a while now. You would think there would be a more efficient training route that would ensure we have enough crew's to handle the ever expanding Skynet.

 

[Swanee]

Do you think it's entirely necessary to train those rated pilots flying the UAV's in a Tacair platform before sending them off to fly UAV's? The only predator pilot I ever met was sent to through the F-16 B-course (or whatever it is they call their FRS) knowing that upon completion he would be flying UAV's for his first tour. That seems like a huge waste of money. Couldn't they get the same effect for a lot less $ from an extended tactical course in the T-38?

We've been fighting wars with robots for a while now. You would think there would be a more efficient training route that would ensure we have enough crew's to handle the ever expanding Skynet.

No- it isn't necessary and is probably overkill. However that has changed and what they get now is a bit lacking. Right now what they do is go through a 40 flight hour syllabus in what the AF calls DOS, which is basically an intensive military flight school style IFS. Then they go to an RPA top off course that consists of flying nothing but T-6A sims. After they they go to their RAG. The product coming out of the current AF RPA pipeline that we see in the VMU seems to be lacking in a few ways. The general consensus among JOPA/CGOs is that UAV guys should come in to the military with a UAV contract- like pilot and NFO is now. They go to API and Primary, then after primary they do a top off to get their instrument qual as well as some experience with weapons release profiles. Then get their own wings and go to their UAV RAG. This also will allow UAV guys to be flight school instructors- which in turn allows the community to become self sustaining, rather than rely heavily on the manned communities for initial training. (Which isn't really good, as generally the manned communities look down on the UAV kids- I did it too before I made the switch)

What that (more expensive than what exists now but less expensive than making guys go full TACAIR) buys you is common knowledge and the ability to communicate when it matters. We need to be able to integrate with the rest of the aviation world, not just hack out our own airspace to fly in. That's tough to do when at the end of the day you come from different worlds. In all reality I want all of you manned aviators to hear Nightowl 31 check in and think, "Sweet, these dudes can really help me out" rather than "Fuck, there's an altitude I can't fly through and a dude who has no clue". #1 ends up with me helping to find the target and either pass you a solid grid or better yet allow me to lase the target for you (your bomb, my laser). #2 ends up with you spending mental power figuring out where I am as opposed to where I should be, and makes your life a lot harder while you do everything yourself.

But these dudes need a rating, they need to know how to talk on the radio, they need to know how to manage airspace and know how important being on altitude is, they need to know how to fly an approach and they need to understand 3 dimensional weapons employment geometry. They also need to understand the pucker factor that manned platforms get at night in bad weather when they have an emergency.

 

[SynixMan]

Good inputs Swanee. Ill also add that the Army has Predators, but my understanding of their doctirinal use is they go with specific units, not indepdent units.

Oh, and then there's this gem:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/6/7501097/good-kill-trailer-drone-war-movie-ethan-hawke-andrew-niccol

 

[Swanee]

Good inputs Swanee. Ill also add that the Army has Predators, but my understanding of their doctirinal use is they go with specific units, not indepdent units.

Oh, and then there's this gem:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/6/7501097/good-kill-trailer-drone-war-movie-ethan-hawke-andrew-niccol

Grey Eagle... That is a lesson on why the Army has no business in the fixed wing tacair world. Take a Predator, make it heavier, more expensive with a greater footprint and make it less capable then give it to a Lance Corporal to use as a glorified artillery spotter.

 

[IRfly]

Have to admit a grudging respect for the AF in pushing back. The Navy would fall all over itself reassuring any and all that there was absolutely no problem and we're "here to support," and then just make everyone work 20 hours a day.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Grey Eagle... That is a lesson on why the Army has no business in the fixed wing tacair world. Take a Predator, make it heavier, more expensive with a greater footprint and make it less capable then give it to a Lance Corporal to use as a glorified artillery spotter.

What is the role of Marine UAV's?

 

[Swanee]

What is the role of Marine UAV's?

Well, our mission statment is "Support the MAGTF commander by conducting electromagnetic spectrum warfare, multi-sensor reconnaissance and surveillance, supporting arms coordination and control, and destroying targets, day or night, under all-weather conditions, during expeditionary, joint, and combined operations."

We can do some of those, others are in development.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Well, our mission statment is "Support the MAGTF commander by conducting electromagnetic spectrum warfare, multi-sensor reconnaissance and surveillance, supporting arms coordination and control, and destroying targets, day or night, under all-weather conditions, during expeditionary, joint, and combined operations."

We can do some of those, others are in development.

The point I was getting at is that until the Marine Corps buys something big enough to carry weapons or an EW system, reconnaissance and "glorified artillery spotter" is where we're at.