Advanced Degrees

[Deror]

Good morning gentlemen,

Yet another question for you all: One of my friend's father is a retired Navy Captain. While he was in the Navy gave him two years to pursue a masters degree. I believe he worked with an NROTC unit while working on the degree. Other than that he had no responsibilities for those two years.

I was wondering if the USMC has a similar program. I am finishing a BS in May and an MA in August through dual enrollment and advanced standing before I report to TBS. I would like to get a PhD down the road in Islamic studies, and found a school (University of South Africa) that allows you to complete the degree in as little as two years. Has anyone heard of the USMC allowing a Marine to get their PhD in exchange for maybe a longer commitment or time served at the USNA?

Thank you

 

[Alecta]

I'm an academic by trade and finished my MA at the University of London, so listen to my words of wisdom, Grasshopper.

If you want to use your PhD for anything- aside from having people call you Doctor- I would strongly suggest you not go to an international program, unless it is internationally renown (Oxford and my alma mater for example). Two years for a PhD is well below what it would take in the US (6-8 start to finish) and those in the know would be extremely suspicous of a program like that. In the UK, they say you can finish a DPhil in 3, but 1. You need an MPhil before you can do that and those take 2 years, and 2. I haven't heard of anyone finishing in under 4 years. PERIOD. If their candidancy phase is 2 years, that is normal, but if they're telling you two years start to finish- Danger Will Robinson. Chances are, they aren't accredidated by the US Department of Education and your PhD won't be worth the paper its printed on.

A PhD is professional training for future professors/researchers. Unless either of those careers interest you in the long run- a terminal Masters will more than suit your needs. Part and parcel of doing a doctoral program in the humanities is teaching snowflake undergrads, doing tenured profs research for them, learning at least 3 languages fluently, and being shit on by post-docs and profs. You will have your funding dicked with, exams tampered with for purely political reasons, and your sanity pushed to the limits. The description "Egotistical, vindictive fucktards" will accurately describe faculty and how they interact with each other. Few care for your well being. If you have some semblance of a life outside of what you study, you will be told you are not adequately dedicated to your subject and given a warning that you may be forced from the program. Oh, and if you're wondering- I actually had what could be called a 'decent' experience in Grad School.

A PhD is a lot like OCS- except everything at OCS serves some kind of greater purpose- the beatings, mind games, etc. Not so in grad school. It's either malicious or due to gross ineptitude.

If you have a burning desire to learn about the most obscure aspects of human civilization and want nothing more in your life than to become an academic- grab an industrial case of lube and assume the position.

In all, a terminal Masters should be more than enough for you. Georgetown has a banging program and it has a lot of policy in it too, even if they are too Arab centric for my tastes. Unless you have a burning desire to study every dual form noun in Ibn Tamiyya's tafsir or want to wade through 1,000 years of fiqh- DO NOT GET A PhD.

 

[Deror]

Thank you for your input. The school I am looking at is accredited, and several of the professors at my college earned PhD's there, including the president of my school's seminary (his 2nd PhD I believe) and at least one dean.

I was also startled and skeptical of the 2 year minimum for the degree, but as stated that is the minimum. I'm sure it is affected by the candidate's background in the subject.

My motive is that I'd like to write on the subject someday, and a PhD will add depth as well as credibility to my writing.

 

[m26]

What kind of program are you thinking of? I doubt the USMC will pay you to attend a graduate school in a foreign country....

 

[Uncle Fester]

I'm an academic by trade and finished my MA at the University of London, so listen to my words of wisdom, Grasshopper.

So, I'm guessing your post-grad work didn't tickle you the right way.

The OP was asking about military post-grad opportunities. What's available comes and goes.

Professional post-grad work - that is, studies in international relations, languages, engineering, etc, which in some way relate to the military and/or your professional development - is part of your career track, somewhere around the O-4/O-5 level depending on your service and community. You can pursue it either at a military postgrad institution (War Colleges and PG schools) or military-funded scholarships to civilian institutions (you have to be accepted just like any other student, but DoD picks up the bill).

If you'd rather get your MBA or an MA in paleontology or something, it's sometimes possible. When officer retention is an issue, both the Navy and MC have offered scholarships, internships, fellowships and other ways to pursue whatever postgrad work interests you. You pay it back through additional years of obligated service. When retention is good, those bribes become harder to get.

And in some cases, officers pursue a degree on their own time and on their own dime. I know guys who've picked up ROTC instructor orders to a specific school because they wanted a degree from there, and many schools have reduced or free tuition for faculty. Or just get stationed somewhere near the school you want and get it done at night.

Since you asked specifically about Islamic studies and studying overseas - for obvious reasons, Islamic studies would not be a hard sell as professional military education nowadays. I don't know if there are any current programs, or if any of the service War Colleges or PG Schools offer it, but if they don't, I'd bet they will soon.

Studying overseas is unlikely on a "study whatever, wherever you want" basis, and we have a very weird relationship with SA these days, anyway. Most overseas PG programs I've seen officers pursue have been at allied service colleges, with the odd fellowship at Oxford and places like that.

 

[Alecta]

The only foreign programs I *think* the USMC will partially fund are at King's College, U of London. I'm not sure if Marines outside of the Naval Academy can apply for Rhodes/Gates Fellowships.

It really depends on what you want to write on. If you want to write books for general readership or that deal with policy, you do not need a PhD to be credible. What lends credibility to a person is 1. Where you studied 2. Who you studied with 3. Which publisher picks up your book 4. Real world experience. A person with real world experience and a terminal MA from Georgetown who worked with John Esposito, and has their book published by Routledge hands down beats someone who has a PhD from an 'okay' foreign program who gets a manuscript contract from Penguin.

Don't think I'm ragging on your school- or where you're people got their degrees from, but I have never heard of University of South Africa as having a top-tier program in Islamic Studies. Georgetown, UC Santa Barbara, Harvard, UNC Chapel Hill, Oxford (St. Antony's College), University of London (SOAS and King's), al-Azar, University of Beirut, Cambridge, Chicago (but only for certain stuff), McGill, University of Toronto, Stanford, UC Berkely, University of Michigan, Yale, Princeton- those are some of the big players in PhD programs in Islamic Studies. You either go big or go home for your PhD. It's all about prestige.

If you want to do a PhD in Middle Eastern politics- that's different, but typically schools that have good PhD programs in Islamic Studies have strong programs in Middle Eastern politics, but not the other way around. There is a lot of overlap between the two, but unless you absolutely love learning everything about Islamic theology- I'd look more towards Poli Sci programs on the Middle East. If it's a "Gee, this is really interesting, but my degrees aren't related" you will need some extra schooling to get up to speed or they will eat you alive. You also need to match your research interests/background to those faculty who teach. So, if you're more into policy and like Eliade's train of thought- kiss Yale good-bye.

Programs change all the time. If this is something you're really set on and need current info, join the AAR (American Academy of Religion) and the MESA (Middle East Studies Association). They have good resources and send out quarterly journals so you can get an idea of who is publishing what, and where, and the level of scholarship you'll be expected to produce. DO NOT e-mail profs at programs directly, it's bad form. You either go through their secretary and/or need an introduction from someone who can attest to your abilities.

 

[Deror]

Thank you for the replies. And to answer someones question: I am interested in the theology of Islam not so much it's legal or political aspects. My BS will be in religion and the MA I'm chipping away at is in theological studies.

 

[phrogdriver]

The Marine Corps isn't going to get you a PhD--it won't cut an officer away for long enough to get one. A master's is well within the norm, though it will likely take some commitment on your part. I got mine going to classes on the weekends, with a little financial help from the Tuition Assistance program.

Other ways to get a master's, some of which are covered in other threads:
Intermediate Level (maj) or Top Level School (ltcol)--do a thesis during the year you're attending.
Fellowships--senior captains and up, but mostly majors and ltcols.
Special Education (yes, funny name) and Advanced Degree Program--get a degree in a field the Corps needs it in and get a follow-on tour using it.
Naval Postgrad School--same kind of thing
Funded Law Program--go to law school, become a JAG
I think Foreign Area Officer/Regional Affairs Officer will get you a master's now--those make you an expert in a particular country or region and the Corps will use you accordingly.

All of these have different career impacts. The ILS/TLS will boost your career. Doing many of the others (SEP, ADP) take you off the beaten path, which can be good or bad. No one will give a crap at all, good or bad, if you get one in your off-time.

 

[Deror]

Sir,

Thank you for the program names, I'll do a bit of research on them.

Perhaps someone who graduated from the USNA can answer this question for me: Out of curiosity how are the profs at the USNA selected? I can't imagine that many officers have PhD's, so does the USNA use civilian profs?

 

[mmx1]

They're a mix of civilian and military permanent staff, and officers that rotate through.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Perhaps someone who graduated from the USNA can answer this question for me: Out of curiosity how are the profs at the USNA selected? I can't imagine that many officers have PhD's, so does the USNA use civilian profs?

They're a mix of civilian and military permanent staff, and officers that rotate through.

Mil faculty have to have a Master's. Civ have to have a doctorate.

Most mil faculty are on orders and will rotate back to the Fleet, but there is a Permanent Military Faculty program. Those guys are all CDR's (AFAIK) and stay at USNA until they retire. Not a bad deal, but hard to get.

As for your interest in studying Islamic theology - the Corps isn't going to pay for that one. If you want the degree, it'll be on an on your own time, on your own dime deal.

Alecta - I'm sure you know what you're talking about when it comes to academia, probably better than the rest of us on this board, but you're not answering the OP's questions. What you can do and best routes to pursue for postgrad education as a military officer (which the OP will soon be) are very different than what's available and best route as a civilian.

 

[Deror]

Mil faculty have to have a Master's. Civ have to have a doctorate.

Most mil faculty are on orders and will rotate back to the Fleet, but there is a Permanent Military Faculty program. Those guys are all CDR's (AFAIK) and stay at USNA until they retire. Not a bad deal, but hard to get.

So all military faculty at the USNA Navy officers(no Marines)?

 

[mmx1]

There are Marine instructors, but AFAIK, there is no set program for Marines to earn a degree expressly for an Academy payback tour as there is in the Navy. You'd have to get it through another program like those mentioned by phrogdriver.

 

[Clux4]

Don't think I'm ragging on your school- or where you're people got their degrees from, but I have never heard of University of South Africa as having a top-tier program in Islamic Studies. Georgetown, UC Santa Barbara, Harvard, UNC Chapel Hill, Oxford (St. Antony's College), University of London (SOAS and King's), al-Azar, University of Beirut, Cambridge, Chicago (but only for certain stuff), McGill, University of Toronto, Stanford, UC Berkely, University of Michigan, Yale, Princeton- those are some of the big players in PhD programs in Islamic Studies. You either go big or go home for your PhD. It's all about prestige.

JHU SAIS program may not have a PhD in Islamic studies but they they have a damn good IR program. Some of those schools are too pricey. I will not consider them unless you plan to specifically use that degree. Though their faculties are stacked with respected scholars, a no name school might suffice.

DO NOT e-mail profs at programs directly, it's bad form. You either go through their secretary and/or need an introduction from someone who can attest to your abilities.

I learned this the hard way. That was when I really realized that these folks in academia considered themselves too distinguished to talk to us mortals.

To the OP, take what Alecta has said. I know you did not come on here to get discouraged about your ambitions but are you really prepared for the unnecessary pressure you have to face with an unreasonable professor/adviser or the fact that you may never make tenure.

 

[zab1001]

What kind of program are you thinking of? I doubt the USMC will pay you to attend a graduate school in a foreign country....

there are ways to do it without the service paying:

http://www.olmstedfoundation.org/olmsted/web/index.cfm

I know Marines who have done this.